Help with Neoprene Timer Seal?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Help with Neoprene Timer Seal?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 02:49 pm:

I got some opposing advice on the neoprene camshaft (timer) seal, does the hollow face the motor or face the fan? I assumed to slather some black RTV in the recess and then press the hollow facing the motor.

Is this correct or do you fellers have any tips?

Thanks,
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 02:54 pm:

James:

If the seal seems to fit really loose - my long ago mentor told me to place it on a selected size of bolt socket and tap on it to swell it out a wee bit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 02:56 pm:

Not sure witch way is correct i installed mine with the neopreme ring towards the motor
I used blue RTV help stick it there.
Why cause thats what had on hand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 03:06 pm:

John- you mean to flatten it out a wee bit?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 03:10 pm:

The lip is angled in one direction so it needs to be angled into the grease/oil side not out. If it is to the out side, grease/oil will be forced under it, if it's angled in, grease/oil will force it tight to the shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Haywood on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 03:20 pm:

A picture would be worth a thousand words. I have my radiator out. Iíll see if I can get a pic of mine installed after it warms up a bit. 35 below wind chill tonight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 03:27 pm:

The seal is tapered where it fits the shaft. The narrower side faces toward the engine.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 03:49 pm:

James, what the posters are trying to convey is the open side of the seal goes to the inside of the cover. When the seal is in place you should see the flat surface looking at you. On some seal this is a metal surface. On others it is a black neoprene surface.

John's tip to male the seal a firmer fit is good. I mashed a seal trying to do as he suggested, so now I fit the seal with a thin sliver of brass shim stock around it, and the obligatory Loctite product.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 05:02 pm:

The seal may need to be squished as has been said or use rtv, It makes no difference which way it faces as there is no pressure anyway. I have done them both ways with no problems as long as the seal fits well on the cam. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 05:42 pm:

You canít make a mistake based on lip direction on a T. My understanding as to rule of thumb on these things generally says to decide what is more of a security blanket for you...keeping oil in, or keeping the chance of dust or grit out.

For the oil in crowd, the lip side points in...

For the dirt and grit crowd, the lip side points out...

Howís that for a typical forum definitive response :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 06:39 pm:

Thanks guys, I managed to get it in there and I'll give it the overnight to dry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 07:05 pm:

I was always told the spring goes towards the oil. Which tells me yours is in backwards; sorry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phillip Maurici on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 07:27 pm:

It goes in just like a seal on a inner wheel bearing the closed in is toward the outside. The above is wrong.
Still driving the 17 roadster I bought from you Jim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Albert Belling on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 08:03 pm:

Andy and Phillip are right on. The flat side out and the spring in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 08:05 pm:

Yep, back asswards !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 09:03 pm:

You should not have a problem with dirt getting in as the timer will separate it from the dirt. The seal is to keep the oil in.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 09:41 pm:

Hey Phil,
Good to hear about the Roadster! Glad it is giving you lots of good times! Thanks for the insights about my seal...Murphy's Law!

Thanks
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 02:44 am:

I have a neoprene seal and a traditional felt seal with the usual disc-shaped, stamped, sheet-metal seal behind my timer. -As the felt seal does still get saturated with oil, I'll conclude that the neoprene seal is not a panacea for stopping the dreaded oil-ooze. -I use a traditional Ford-type roller-timer, which needs lubrication anyway, and I clean it out about every two fuel fill-ups. -Other than the need for this pleasant, therapeutic tinkering chore, this setup performs just fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 05:13 am:

Cranking your T--James, you don't mention the year of your T but I would be interested in knowing if you ever hand crank the car. I may be looking at the pulley and crank ratchet from a bad angle but it dosen't look like the pulley has a pin and the ratchet dosen't have enough hook. Could be a "hand against the head light wack" if you tried to crank. I have experience with that. Dick C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 07:43 pm:

He won't have a problem as there is NO pressure on the oil side, however the old felt seals act as a wick. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 08:30 pm:

It must crank alright Dick, looks like a roll pin in the crank and a non starter motor early T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 08:50 pm:

The car is a 1915 and a non-starter for sure. Actually,the hole for the pin, when inserted and 1st cylinder is at TDC, fires the #4 spark plug.

In this image I believe that my #1 was at TDC so that's a mystery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 09:01 pm:

Here's my brush with #1 at TDC with compression.

I have no idea why it turned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, January 08, 2018 - 01:34 am:

I think the crank ratchet has been ground down. I reported the problem with some aluminum pulleys last year. The back of the pulley is too thick and the ratchet will not go in far enough to grab the pin that goes through the crankshaft. This looks like the case here and because the ratchet has been ground down the HOOKS on the ratchet are almost gone. This will cause the crank to "let go" under pressure of cranking. Then your hand flies off and whacks the headlight. I have had this painful experience on a 1915 that I bought. I talked to one of our major suppliers about this and he was to look into it and see if it was true and if there was a fix. Dick C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, January 08, 2018 - 01:54 am:

Agree with you on that problem Dick, the fix is do-able I turned out the centre some more for the ratchet to sit at home better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, January 08, 2018 - 11:20 am:

James - early cams had the pin hole drilled through so one get 180 out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, January 08, 2018 - 11:30 am:

James - early cams had the pin hole drilled through so one get 180 out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Monday, January 08, 2018 - 01:42 pm:

Steve- okay man, I'll dbl-check and see if that hole goes all the way through. Hopefully it will.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Monday, January 08, 2018 - 09:21 pm:

Bingo, the crank hole indeed is all the way through and the brush is now lined up properly! Thanks, Steve! Plus, here is my crank teeth- they look fairly good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 - 03:54 pm:

James, You need to get the proper front engine mount cap. That home made strapping mount cap could break causing damage to your early pan or even worse damage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 - 03:59 pm:

I have a bunch - if you don't have one, send me your address James and I'll drop one into a small flat-rate box - $7.00.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 - 04:55 pm:

PLEASE, put some cotter pins in those castle nuts as well!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 - 07:02 pm:

Jerry, are you referring to the U bolt nuts? for what I can see they have spring washers under the nuts, eliminating the need for cotters.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole, Oswego, IL on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 - 09:59 pm:

Thanks Steve, much appreciated!

James Chochole
448 Barnaby Dr
Oswego, IL 60543

**stick a note in the box and let me know what you need to get for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 - 10:37 am:

No charge - just the mailing cost.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 - 11:03 am:

Frank,



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 - 01:17 pm:

Open side of seal goes towards motor.

There is no dirt to keep out of the engine, just oil to keep in, as the felt seal was used in that way.

Lock washers, we use them on everything. Use new Lock washers, not ones that have been under tension for 50 years.

Everybody has taken something apart that has had a broken Lock Washer on it, but I have never had a bolt come loose because of it, if the bolt, or nut was properly tightened in the first place.

We always have used Lock Washers on main bolts. Many motors that come in don't have keys, locks, nothing.

Herm.


Herm.


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