Wet Garage

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Wet Garage
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 04:06 pm:

So my little unheated two car garage was built in 1919. I have no means to heat it it properly and generally run a propane tank type heater when Iím out there working just to have a place to warm my hands from time to time.

This year I decided to isolate the cement floor by laying down a large plastic tarp and parking the T over that. I also stapled a sheet of plastic over the rafters in an attempt to keep in the heat when Iím out there. I have a fan on a timer to blow some air around the car to help evaporate condensation. But I think the conditions are worse now. Any suggestions? Should I remove the tarp on the floor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 04:07 pm:

Sounds like you built a solar still.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gary hammond-Forest, Va on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 04:26 pm:

block the floor but the moisture has to have an out- the roof. Get rid of the upper plastic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 04:27 pm:

Mark, your heater if it is not vented out thru a chimney of some sort will create a lot of moisture from the liquid in the propane.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john hardiman on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 04:33 pm:

Cover the car with a car cover and run a small watt drop lite under the car on the cement floor. The small amount of heat generated gets rid of the condensation. I have done it in the past with my motorcycle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 04:36 pm:

I believe an unvented heater will also produce CO. You don't want that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 04:48 pm:

Yeah ... was thinking the upper plastic was counterproductive. The drop light under the car sounds like a good idea too. Right now the relative humidity and temperature in up state New York are going back and forth so dewpoint is a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 05:43 pm:

Absolutely get rid of the plastic on the ceiling.

The tarp on the floor is definitely a good idea. That part you did right and it will help protect the car some.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 06:20 pm:

Unvented heaters won't kill you if you don't tamper with them, they all have a ODS or oxygen depletion sensor that shuts the pilot off when the o level drops to 20%, the do produce water vapor depending on the btuh ,I heat my two car garage with a 18,000 btuh unit mounted six foot off the floor, it has a small fan and it will keep the garage 60 degrees in our coldest weather.
Don't be afraid of a unvented heater if it has a ODS, beware of the ones you find at garage sales and farm auctions.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 06:34 pm:

Cover the floor with rubber squares that lock together that are used in some school areas. They eliminate the cold coming off the floor and makes it a lot easier on the feet and ankles if you spend a lot of time in the garage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 06:36 pm:

Also you will need some ventilation, there is a formula for figuring out how much water is in the combustion. Natural gas is CH4, while Propane is C4H8 added to the moisture in the air and you can produce some sweating on cold surfaces.
The formula is 40 pages long.


Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard E Moore Jr. Pickwick lake Tenn. on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 06:40 pm:

Gallon of propane makes a gallon of water. We tried propane heaters in Montana hunting wall tents. Made them rain inside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 06:54 pm:

Possibly related Mark, but maybe not:

When I was much younger, as a Milwaukee Road RR cop, I spent considerable time protecting derailment scenes on the Milwaukee Road in Montana. I literally "lived" in various wilderness areas in a rather crude camper on the back of a pickup truck for days (& nights) at a time in the winter in the '70's. Actually had situations whereby my boss had freight train crews throw off groceries and such for me from the caboose once the mainline was opened up again. All the camper had was an alcohol heater for heating & cooking, which of course ran pretty much continuously in the sub-zero winter weather. I ended up with pneumonia and later found out that what contributed greatly to the pneumonia problem was the fact that alcohol heaters in a small enclosed area like a camper, produce a lot of water vapor, even tho' I was careful to always "crack" a window and one roof vent. No more alcohol heaters for me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 06:59 pm:

Possibly related Mark, but maybe not:

When I was much younger, as a Milwaukee Road RR cop, I spent considerable time protecting derailment scenes on the Milwaukee Road in Montana. I literally "lived" in various wilderness areas in a rather crude camper on the back of a pickup truck for days (& nights) at a time in the winter in the '70's. Actually had situations whereby my boss had freight train crews throw off groceries and such for me from the caboose once the mainline was opened up again. All the camper had was an alcohol heater for heating & cooking, which of course ran pretty much continuously in the sub-zero winter weather. I ended up with pneumonia and later found out that what contributed greatly to the pneumonia problem was the fact that alcohol heaters in a small enclosed area like a camper, produce a lot of water vapor, even tho' I was careful to always "crack" a window and one roof vent. No more alcohol heaters for me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 07:01 pm:

Oops! Double post due to telephone "distraction"! Sorry,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 07:04 pm:

This is the type heater I have and used last year in this garage to rebuild the T during the winter. Just enough to warm your legs and hands when you stand next to it.

Heater


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 07:05 pm:

Be careful Mark! Seems to me that you just had surgery. Might be that right now, you are considerably more prone to things like colds, flu', pneumonia, etc, etc. FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 07:31 pm:

Yes ... I'm in the house. This is all theoretical. Something to figure out in an easy chair while I work on feeling better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 07:55 pm:

I use a heater similar to the one pictured above in my shop. I used to keep a CO detector in the shop but it never went off. I moved it inside the house when we got nonvented gas logs. It's never gone off in there either, but they are designed to burn nonvented indoors. The propane heater in the shop is not, but I don't run it for hours on end and dont sleep out there. The shop is not air tight like the house.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 08:04 pm:

I learned the problem with upper and lower plastic several years ago with a rental house that I no longer own, thank God. The house had only a crawlspace with a dirt floor. I had plastic put down on the dirt, good move. Then I decided it was a good idea to put plastic on the bottom of the floor joists. I was told, by someone who's opinion that i valued highly, that it would be a mistake to add the second plastic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 08:08 pm:

Mark, experiment a little and cut open part of the ceiling and see if it lets enough moister out, if not open it up more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 08:36 pm:

Mark, The building that I keep my 1911 T Has no heat. It has a cement floor. I put regular floor carpet on top of the cement floor with no plastic. People throw away carpet. I change it every now and then. You can use any kind of heater you want while you are working. No plastic anywhere.Plastic causes condensation. I don't even cover my T at all. Hope this helps. Pete


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 09:50 pm:

My 1919 garage ... back when I had the speedster. As you can see ... no insulation and a cement floor that isn't very flat.

Garage


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Erfert on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 10:07 pm:

Once again I will say that I have had success with a 40W incandescent light bulb under the hood to keep the radiator warm (the '25 is outside with a all weather cover) in Northern AZ. The garage is not heated but I found a halogen heater/light that will heat up fast when working inside. The heater is 800W and I don't worry about combustibles in the air during work time. It freezes up here and we have snow at 7,000 ft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 10:30 pm:

My garage has a bare concrete floor, but the walls and ceiling are insulated an dry walled. This electric heater that I bought from Northern Tools keeps it quite dry and comfortable. :-)


https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_595_595?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_so urce=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Heaters,%20Stoves%20%2B%20Fireplaces%20%3E%20Electric %20Heaters%20%3E%20Electric%20Garage%20%2B%20Industrial%20Heaters&utm_campaign=F ahrenheat&utm_content=17303&gclid=Cj0KCQiAs9zSBRC5ARIsAFMtUXFfcV0yVx5pMnvFe-NOCx 6kgoAlxL_yju68lEe7bvR07LkL9QhAIH8aAh5IEALw_wcB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 11:03 pm:

I have a red iron building 40X60 and 17 feet in the middle of the roof with a 3:12 pitch roof. Two 10X10 bay doors and one 10X12 door insulated. The walls and ceiling have 3" insulation on rolls 6ft wide. I put one of those Hot Blast wood heaters in with two 500cfm blowers. When the temp got down to 10deg the other day it was 70deg inside. When I go in for the night I load the heater with wood and turn the dampers down. 12 hours later when I go back in the temp is still between 45 and 50deg and has hot coals to throw more wood on. Good dry heat. I have the heater on one end of the building and the other end is pretty comfortable as well. I don't think I would go any other way as far as heat. No moisture at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 11:16 pm:

Hmm ... interesting .... and I wish I had all that room and the money to build a massive garage .... but my post is more about making a very small, ninety-nine year old uninsulated garage less damp. Think that great silent movie with Harold Lloyd and a T runabout in the tiny garage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john hardiman on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 11:46 pm:

My garage was built in 1926 as was my house. Have, as of yet, not found any solution to this problem as I live in Massachusetts and experience the same situation. When I posted earlier, at that point, what is of concern is the vehicles. This is why I stated to cover vehicle and place heat source under and it will help with the condensation because without insulation condensation rules.

Maybe a wood stove can help. However, if your garage is like mine volatile materials are present and I do not recommend it.

The major problem without insulation is around here you have to pretty much close for the winter as you probably do living in New York. Nonetheless, during the winter I can still get little projects completed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 11:54 pm:

True....
But even in my attached garage stall and a half, if I were going to work in it I had thought about heating it with wood from an outside heater but it was always too crowded to be able to do much inside there in the winter.
I think the light bulb idea is the best idea as far as a form of dry heat to keep down humidity. But if you heat with un-vented propane it will produce moisture.
What about vented propane?
That is a good warm dry heat. I grew up with my feet next to a 50,000 btu Warm Morning heater as our only source of heat except for the 110v heater in the bathroom. I always dreaded those cold toilet seats.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Hand on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 06:02 am:

Wow, The dreaded incandescent drop light has caused more fires and damage to cars and burns to mechanics I will not use them at all any more. Even the coated rough service bulbs can fracture causing a fire, placing the light on the floor, that's where any volatile fumes can collect. You better find a different plan of attack, best thing is to leave your poor and car alone for the rest of the winter. On a side note I did get 2 of my T's moved yesterday, it was 50deg out, 52 now at 6am, and expected to be 11deg tomorrow. The saying here in Syracuse is if you do not like the weather wait 5 min. and it will change!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 09:13 am:

I too have a wet garage where my Model T lives, but it is newer construction. Most of the moisture comes from the fact it is my only garage and home to my truck and some winter toys that all drip moisture after their trips in the snow. It is however vented well. What doesn't evaporate and head to the atmosphere is firmly frozen into a glacier on the floor that won't recede until April around these parts. Sub zero temps have done a stellar job of helping me resist the urge to tinker with the car this winter. I do bring in some small parts where I can work on them in the comfort of my home to provide my "fix" from time to time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Landry, Hudson, NH on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 10:11 am:

Tommy - the reason you don't want to put plastic on the bottom of the floor joists is that it will cause condensation to form in any insulation you have there. In a cold climate, the vapor has to be on the warm-in-winter side of the insulation. It has to do with the temperature and humidity through the wall materials.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Landry, Hudson, NH on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 10:14 am:

Wow, that was sloppy! Here's what I meant to say, with all the words. Hopefully, it makes a bit more sense.

Tommy - the reason you don't want to put plastic on the bottom of the floor joists is that it will cause condensation to form in any insulation you have there. In a cold climate, the vapor barrier has to be on the warm-in-winter side of the insulation. It has to do with the temperature and humidity profile through the wall materials.


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