Can anyone help me identify a wheel I have? It is a 5 1/2 front T looking hub but it is part of an intact 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rim. This wheel was on a driven Model T. This is not a put together wheel for sure. I am sure it is original and suspect it may be an pre T Ford wheel, perhaps a Model F wheel. Thoughts or opinions? Thanks, Mike
It seems to be from a 1909-10 Model T. If for the rear it is for a staight axel. If a front hub , it should be for a 30x3 tire.
Can you post a picture of the wheel?
It was definitely made as a 30x3 1/2 wheel with a front hub therefore not a Model T front wheel. I believe it must be from 05-06 era when I have been told heavier wheels were likely used. I will take some pictures. Thanks, mike
Ford of Canada used a 30 x 3 1/2 inch front clincher rim on their Model Ts from the start of their production with the 1909 models. They had 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher rims on all four wheels. Ref, Model T Ford Club International Judging Guidelines 7th Edition item 570 wheels (24 inch which is for the 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher tires) and item 580 tires listed as 30 x 3 1/2 for all four.
Also Dykes and other repair books discussed how two owners of USA Model T Fords could swap the hubs in the wood wheels to create two cars that only needed to carry a single size spare rather than two different sizes of spare tires. I personally would not want to go to 30 x 3 on all four wheels but it was mentioned as an option.
And if the wheel was damaged sometime in the past the hub could have easily been used with the rear wheel -- or rebuilt for the 5 1/2 hub flange.
Note per Pate's Early Ford Encyclopedia -- great book available from the vendors as well as the author at: http://dunlavy.us/carlpate/index.htm It along with the sales brochures at: http://www.mtfca.com/books/bookmenu.htm show that NONE of the pre-T Fords used the 30 x 3 1/2 clinchers.
Model A - 28 x 3
Model B - 32 x 3 1/2 clincher
Model C - 28 x 3
Model F - 30 x 3
Model K - 34 x 4
Model N -- 28 x 3 (5 inch hub flange) (a few 28 x 2 1/2 for early 1906)
Model R -- 30 c 3 (5 inch hub flange)
Model S Runabout -- 28 x 3 (5 inch hub flange)
Model S Roadster -- 30 x 3 (5 inch hub flange)
also same information on page 46-47 of "Tin Lizzie" by Stern which was reprint from the Ford Times.
Note on page 90 & 91 of chapter 6 of Pate's book he shows a photo of a Model F with a 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher rim. BUT it had clearly been MODIFIED. A previous owner had added a thick band of wood around the original smaller felloe or probably a 28 x 3 to make it large enough to properly fit a 30 x 3 1/2 rim.
Note our Model S Runabout originally had 28 x 3 clinchers but someone modified the wheels to take a 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rim.
So it is highly likely that you have:
A Canadian front wheel or
A front hub pressed into a rear wheel that had the same flange size or
A wheel that was made on the hub after it left the factory to use the 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rim or
A wheel that is not a Ford wheel.
As pointed out above Ford USA and it is assumed Ford of Canada about the same time went from the 5 1/2 flange to the 6 inch flange between 1910 and 1911 models.
Note there were some 6 inch flange rear wheels that were still straight rear axles ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#fwhubs for the early 1911 model cars.
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Correction to the above table -- the Model F wheel size was 30 x 3 1/2 double tube ref http://www.mtfca.com/books/bookmenu.htm see the Model F description on the left side of the Model F page.
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Did you see the wheel picture I sent. I think the wheel I have is very likely a legit Model F front wheel. This one needs a home with a Model F. Mike
Model A, C, and F all used the same front hub which was just over 6" diameter. As far as I know the only Ford which used a 5 1/2" front hub was 1909-10 model T. If you can post a photo or email it to me I can tell you whether its a Ford wheel or not.
Please send me a PM with your email address and I will send you a couple of good pictures. Mike
I believe the "double tube" reference is to the Firestone mechanically attached rim design ( readily recognized by many bolts around the tire inside diameter) also used on the first Model N. They were less than successful and quickly replaced with Goodyear ( clincher) design.
PM sent Mike.
Layden -- thank you for the explanation on the "double tube" -- I think that is what it is referring to also. But I haven't found it in any of the references I remember reading.
Mike -- yes, I sent you an e-mail yesterday. Below are the two photos you sent my way -- resized below 251 kb so they will post on the forum:
Note the 2 photos are very similar. I marked the bottom one. Note the circle on the right shows a square nut. The circle on the left shows the bolt is not as long as a standard bolt would be and could not be "staked" in the normal way.
That indicates to me that at least those two nuts have been off before. As I mentioned in my e-mail, if you can provide a photo showing the other side of the hub both parallel and perpendicular to the hub -- that may help ID the hub.
The N,R,S & SR hubs were similar shape to the T hub. They all had the approximately the same diameter hub, then it became a smaller diameter shortly after the hub cap and became larger again as it entered the wheel flange. The photos on pages 87 and 88 of Chapter 6 of Carl's book show the Model A and Model F front hub appears to stay a constant diameter from the hub cap back to where the hub goes into the wheel flange.
Below is the best photo I could find of the 1903-05 front hub note it is basically the same diameter from the hub cap (in this case hub cap threads) back to the wheel flange. (Photo from e-bay sale).
Below is the Model T hub illustration. Note how the hub diameter gets smaller between the hub cap and the wheel flange.
If someone has better photos of the 1903-1905 hubs etc. that would be great.
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