Factory rear bearing starter?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Factory rear bearing starter?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 09:59 pm:

Pulled the armature out of an old rusty starter today. Had to tap on the case to get it out. Instead of a babbitt bushing there was a open face bearing in the brush end. No big deal except the armature was made with a step where it goes in the bearing, to control the thrust, where we now use a bushing. I guess Ford made or bought starters with a bearing in the day? The inside of the nose has a cast (Ford). The armature is marked (1Ford 92).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 12:50 am:

Adding a ball bearing was a very common replacement when overhauling a starter. Interesting to note, the bearing in the generator was the same as the one that fits in the starter. If my creekly old mind is working I think it was a 201 bearing.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 09:08 am:

This modification was a common repair to the Model T starter. The original Babbitt bushing was unsatisfactory because there was no provision for lubrication and the thrust surface was too small and wore very quickly. When doing this mod in the Model T era the armature shaft was turned down to the metric id (yes, Model T generator bearing were Metric) of the generator 6201 bearing, but once again there was no provision for lubrication.
When doing this mod today there is no need to turn down the armature shaft. You can use a 6201 2 RS 1/2 id (armature end od) ball bearing which is a double sealed bearing which is pre-lubricated along with a small spacer to take up the extra space left when using the 10 MM width bearing.
Here is a photo of what this starter bearing kit looks like.
By the way starter date code 92 is September 1926.
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 09:18 am:

I forgot to mention, failure of the Babbitt bushing in the starter brush cap is the second most prevalent starter failure mode I have found over the years.
This mod is the easiest to accomplish on the starter.
Here are two more photos of this bushing/bearing modification mod.
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 09:19 am:

one more.
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 12:09 pm:

I love it when Ron posts. Nothing but clear cut undeniable factual information.

Thank you...



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Walters on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 12:17 pm:

Ron do you use rewound armatures in your starter rebuilds? Or just tested good armatures? If rewound how do you go about rewinding them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 02:49 pm:

There are several firms in the USA that can properly rewind Model T generator armatures, replace bent shafts if necessary and finish and undercut the commutator segments.
The starter armature windings are another matter. These windings are called "hairpins" because of their shape before installation. These hairpins are no longer made. I once looked into having hairpins made but I would have had to purchase minimum 250,000 pieces. Not an economical proposition.
I am told there are companies in the USA that rewind starter armatures with wire, which is technical feasible, but I have no experience with these.
I simply find good armatures, straighten if necessary and finish the commutators which is somewhat easier than the generator armature. You do not have to undercut the starter commutator segments because of the hardness of the composite brushes used in the starter.
I also have a machinist friend repair starter armature shafts with buggered up Woodruff key slots and Bendix drive head bolt holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 02:55 pm:

Forgot to mention above that because of the low starting motor duty cycle the pre-lubed double sealed ball bearings will last a long time.
Armature end play and thrust is controlled at the mounting bracket bushing and the oil seal fixes another common problem as shown in these photos.
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 02:58 pm:

Oops
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Walters on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 03:01 pm:

Ron I know that the seal is available from the vendors but what is the part # and size for this seal? Thanks,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Brooks on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 05:15 pm:

I would also like to know what seal you use Ron. Do you have a part number so it can be purchased at the local parts store?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C-west central, MN on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 09:14 pm:

By chance is there a handy date-code chart for the starters and generators?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 09:49 pm:

Ron, surely the oil seal is at the wrong end of the starter nose. The way shown on the photo will oil to penetrate along the shaft and drop down the hole into the starter.
Maybe you replace the bearing and donít drill the hole.
I follow the directions given by Milt Webb and put the seal at the front of the nose and put a little grease in the shaft


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 10:10 pm:

To successfully implement this oil seal solution the starter mounting bracket bushing must be removed and reinstalled. One to cutoff the thrust washer, two to reinstall the bushing WITHOUT aligning the Ford built in oil leak drain hole and three to align ream the bushing.
Sufficient oil travels down the shaft to lubricate the bushing, but wont pass the oil seal.
"A little grease on the shaft" with no provision for lubrication is why the previously discussed brush cap Babbitt bushing fails.
Early Model T starters had a similar mounting bracket oil seal implementation, but this was soon discontinued and the hole in the bottom of the starter case added to allow the oil coming into the case to drip out the bottom of the starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 10:56 pm:

Learn something new every day. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, January 12, 2018 - 11:12 pm:

Just remembered I have a photo of the early Ford starter oil seal that was used for a short time.
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 06:50 pm:

Duey Et Al
Model T Ford Starting manufacturing date codes.
# Month Year
44 9 1922
45 10 1922
46 11 1922
47 12 1922
48 1 1923
49 2 1923
50 3 1923
51 4 1923
52 5 1923
53 6 1923
54 7 1923
55 8 1923
56 9 1923
57 10 1923
58 11 1923
59 12 1923
60 1 1924
61 2 1924
62 3 1924
63 4 1924
64 5 1924
65 6 1924
66 7 1924
67 8 1924
68 9 1924
69 10 1924
70 11 1924
71 12 1924
72 1 1925
73 2 1925
74 3 1925
75 4 1925
76 5 1925
77 6 1925
78 7 1925
79 8 1925
80 9 1925
81 10 1925
82 11 1925
82 12 1925
84 1 1926
85 2 1926
86 3 1926
87 4 1926
88 5 1926
89 6 1926
90 7 1926
91 8 1926
92 9 1926
93 10 1926
94 11 1926
95 12 1926
96 1 1927
97 2 1927
98 3 1927
99 4 1927
100 5 1927
101 6 1927
102 7 1927
103 8 1927
104 9 1927
105 10 1927
106 11 1927
107 12 1927


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Walters on Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - 07:15 am:

Thank you Ron for those date codes. Do generators have the same date codes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - 08:16 am:

Presumably, but I have never looked.
I stumbled upon the starter date code information when looking at the original Ford factory engineering drawings for the starter armature.
I have never looked at the Ford generator armature engineering drawings.


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