Warford Identification

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Warford Identification
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Smith, Prescott, AZ on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 04:17 pm:

I have an aluminum case Warford transmission that I am rebuilding. Does anyone have information on the model number and or have a parts diagram for reference?
There are issues with the tapered pilot bearing between the main shaft and input shaft. The bearing retainer for the main shaft has issues as well. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Paul. Warford case and diagram.WarfordWarford


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 06:30 pm:

The bearing between the shafts is made from unobtanium. All the other bearings and races are available.
Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Smith, Prescott, AZ on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 07:56 pm:

Dan
Do you know if there is a replacement for the pilot bearing available anywhere?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 08:01 pm:

Unobtanium means, they ether are very very rare or just cannot be found.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 08:28 pm:

Hi Paul - Interesting Warford, still shows the Partridge, Singer & Baldwin logo. Can you give us the serial Number off the side of the case? I am trying to build a data base showing when changes occurred.

Anyone else who has a Warford, I would appreciate a photo showing what the case & shifter look like, and the serial number of your unit(s).

Thanks, Tim Knapp, Wilsonville, Oregon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Smith, Prescott, AZ on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 09:38 pm:

Tim
Interesting thing I found when I placed the shifting cover back on the case. It appears there a 2 different serial numbers. Looks like someone may have changed these out at one point. As you can see, we have had to do some repair on three of the corners so the cover will bolt up correctly. Paul
Complete caseSerial numbers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 09:44 pm:

And YES, we would like to know about both aluminum and iron Warfords! / Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 10:00 pm:

And YES, we would like to know about both aluminum and iron Warfords!

And if you really want to help, count the teeth on the large sliding gear on the top shaft and let us know.

Paul, thanks for posting the photos. The shift tower does appear to be off a different case. So far, all Warfords that have the "gimbal" shifter are aluminum, and have serial numbers below 5000. We have not recorded any Warfords with serial numbers over 5000, but below 50,000. All Warfords recorded above 53,700 approx. are iron case, and have either shifters Style B or Style C. Are there Warfords out there in between these numbers?
Thx / Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Smith, Prescott, AZ on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 11:36 pm:

Tim
The large sliding gear has 24 teeth and the smaller sliding gear has 15,'Hope this helps
Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 03:32 am:

I did mention this on the forum several years ago, but have not seen it since. The "unobtainium" middle bearing. NO promises, and NO, I don't have one. But the one Warford I had, years ago, was an iron case, and that bearing was in a dozen small pieces. But I found one, in one of my junk boxes, where you may not think to look. Just something I happened to have, and took the time to check it. It was the outer wheel/spindle bearing in a Willys Knight hub. Judging by the hubcap, I would guess about 1925 through '27. It was a perfect fit, and in excellent condition. Know anybody with some extra Willys Knight parts? Like maybe a front axle?
No promises what you find will fit. But might be worth a look.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Smith, Prescott, AZ on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 09:40 am:

Thanks for the tip Wayne. This one is only in 2 pieces but the race in the input shaft is not in the best of condition. There are 2 trains of thought locally here. Put it back together and run it, or modify the shaft for a replacement. Still scratching my head on what to do here.
Paul

Unobtainium tapered bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 04:53 pm:

Paul S, Yours I would consider using. Mine, I had two incomplete iron case Warfords I was trying to put one together. One was missing the bearing. The bearing the other one had, the keeper was in a few pieces, the tapered cone was chewed up, and I think three of the rollers were chewed up or in pieces also. The remaining rollers didn't look wonderful either. I had one input gear with a nice outer race, and the Willys wheel bearing was a wonderfully perfect fit into the race, and on the output shaft. It all went together nicely, and ran great for the several years I had and ran that car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 06:57 pm:

From your picture it doesn't look too bad and may run for many miles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Smith, Prescott, AZ on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 11:46 pm:

Gene and Wayne
That was the conclusion that our club has come to as well. With as little running time the vehicle will get, I think we can make do and hope for the best. The next challenge is the fluted retainer behind the rear bearing on the main shaft. It may be the primary reason the small unobtainium bearing has started to fail. Don't you just love these challenges?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt the Headlight Lens Guy n California on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 12:14 am:

I have an opportunity to buy this Warford transmission.




What I am looking for is a transmission with a PTO for my dump truck bed. But wondering the thoughts on this. Is it worth the trouble Without know the internal condition?

Perhaps just the connecting parts would make it worth it?

Thanks,

Matt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 02:40 am:

Hi Matt- That appears to be an early Warford, aluminum case, and the first version shifter which is actually the most sophisticated shifter in terms of engineering. Likely the serial number is 5,000 or less, but I would be interested in what it actually is. No way to know about internals without looking. Has it been buried in the sand, or just really dirty?

Personally, I would not pay a lot, but it is potentially an interesting transmission if the internals are usable. / Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 03:43 am:

Matt, I don't think that specific transmission had "power-take-off" capability. I don't know if any of the aluminum case Warford transmissions do (maybe some did?). But generally, it is the iron case Warfords that have a bolt-on place for the power take-off.
The "big-case Muncies I think also have power take-off capability, but the smaller Muncies do not. Chicago does not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry & Sharon Miller, Westminster, CO on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 11:36 am:

Tim pointed out a good generalization. GENERALLY speaking, the aluminum Warfords were used in cars and the cast iron Warfords in both cars but more in the TT trucks. All of the cast iron Warfords I have seen have the PTO or cover on the side. This doesn't mean a whole lot since it is JUST what I'VE seen and not even a representative portion of the total.

Matt, you could buy the one you show, if you can get it for a reasonable price. Then sell/trade for a cast iron with a PTO or at least the option of installing a PTO. Chickasha will be a prime opportunity for finding exactly what you want.

Good Luck,
Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 11:48 am:

Has anyone tried using the power takeoff from a Ford Model AA truck? The gasket looks the same and could have come from the same company that Ford got them from.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 12:35 pm:

The cast iron Warford w/PTO capability is the late model.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays Kansas on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 05:12 pm:

Per the information I learned at the SSC Winter Clinic 3 weeks ago, the bearing that you can not buy new was last made to fit something in like 1928 and has had no application since that time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Braddock - SW Kansas on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 06:14 pm:

Is the only thing that makes this bearing obsolete the tapered inner race or is the degree of taper on the outside different? They appear to me to have much more taper on the od. than typical. If the inner race is the only thing making this an oddity then couldnt the shaft it fits on be machined straight?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt the Headlight Lens Guy n California on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 12:39 am:

Thanks for all the comments! I was thinking along the lines of what Terry said. Buy this then upgrade to a PTO ready version. Are all the connecting parts the same on both the engine and drive shaft sides? The main reason I would want to get this is to get the associated parts.

What would you consider a good price?

Thanks!

Matt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 02:17 am:

No
Unless you do some modification to the input shaft that will not work. You would need a shorter drive shaft, tube and radius rods along with the intermediate housing that goes between the trans and back of the engine. The aluminum one you show is not a direct change over for the cast iron housing type.
Google mtfca;warford


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 02:20 am:

I don't know about back then, but in my somewhat limited experience, not very many PTO's will interchange between makes in more modern transmissions. The six bolt port is the same, but almost always the teeth on the gears aren't. The gaskets are also shims to set the backlash with. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt the Headlight Lens Guy n California on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 11:41 pm:

Mark,
Thanks for the advice. I found this page: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/474136.html?1409244609
&
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/500791.html?1418265270

If I understand things correctly:
Warford needs the special coupler (housing and connectors) but uses a standard T U-joint inside it between the Warford and the engine.

The cast iron Warford requires the special cross member/support behind the transmission. The aluminum case Warford just bolts directly onto the back of the Ford Transmission and doesn't require the support member.

Also there is differences between the length of the driveshaft between the too transmissions.

So basically the two Warfords are not very similar.

Matt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 12:06 am:

"So basically the two Warfords are not very similar. " That's it in a nut shell! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt the Headlight Lens Guy n California on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 12:28 am:

I also found this article on various auxiliary transmissions.

http://www.nwvs.org/Technical/MTFCA/Articles/2602AuxilaryTransmissions2.pdf

It has lots more good information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 01:33 am:

One thing it does not touch on, the Warford does have a neutral. So after market rear brakes should be used. Thanks for that link, had not seen it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 01:41 am:

Matt: The aluminum and cast iron Warford's are very different including being different lengths,(aprox mes; aluminum 12",iron 16"). Only the cast iron Warford had a PTO option replacing the side cover with a PTO output gear box. The PTO gear box part is hard to find. The cast iron Warford in my unrestored 1925 TT does not have a PTO but you could come over and look at it if you want.
See following reference for good iron Warford and PTO pictures.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/599952.html


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