Are there any records on serial numbers allotted to Canada. Early Canadian cars have US serial numbers, all I know is blocks of numbers were given to Canadian built cars our car is 146xxx which is early Sept but hat is based on US numbers. The other 12 that is here in Manitoba is 107xxx it is a much earlier car. Cheers Colin

Hi Colin

I can't answer your question but can offer some observations. 156,950 and 156,959 survive in Australia. I assume they came here in the same shipment.

Andrew.

I do now that all numbers prior to 1912 are US serial numbers. serial 144xx is a us built car and that is the closest number to my 12. I would think that cars ordered there would be in groups so your serial number would be in small groups I think you have more Canadian 12 there than we do here. Dad had only found 6 12s including ours. Cheers Colin

Colin,

Great question. The answer is Yes, for engine numbers #1 and for numbers 1,119 to #70,915 the Shipping Invoices discussed on pages 475-477 of Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford" show what engine numbers were assembled into a car or chassis and the date that was done. For those that were sent to Ford of Canada, they are also included in that listing.

Initially Bruce listed about every 10th serial number and also those that had something special to document between every 10th number. But he quickly switched to listing every 100th number and again adding those that had something special to add to the history of the cars. But the Benson Ford Archives has most of the Shipping Invoices on microfiche for most of the numbers between 1,119 to #70,915.

For example, on page 478 he has engine # 1,335 (chassis only - no body or fenders) shipped to Walkerville CA on Mar 10, 1909. Why did he list that one -- probably because it was the first one he has listed as going to Ford of Canada.

On page 479 of Bruce's book (also in his CD version) he has #1,500 (why 1,500 -- because he was listing every 10th serial number and 1,500 was one of them).

On page 499 he has "engine only RHD, to Canada"
#69,000 on Sep 28, 1911 (again - why did he list #69,000 -- it was one of the every 100 engine numbers).

The listing started to be incomplete around mid-Sept 1911 (ref page 499). And Bruce does not show any additional dates after #70,750 where he noted "Oct 5, 1911 Engine Only "1912 commutator" ( first such note found)""

Note -- the missing numbers between #1 and #1,119 also had some serial numbers that went to Canada. For example we know #240 a completely assembled touring car was shipped to Ford of Canada on Dec 23, 1908. Ref Trent Boggess' Early Ford Database available on the CD provided with Carl Pate's book "Pate's Early Ford Encyclopedia" as well as Bruce's 2 CD set "Model T Ford Comprehensive Encyclopedia." The information on those numbers were obtained from the Accounts Receivable Ledgers at the Benson Ford Archives.


1912 was a hectic time for Ford. I don't remember the entire story -- but the engine production was done at more than one location in the general Detroit area. The "B" serial numbers were produced etc. In Bruce's book, copyrighted 1994, Bruce stated on page 506 of his engine serial number listing:

"There are apparently no records extant for late 1911 through 1912. The figures given are those published by Ford."

After the book was published, some of the Accounts Receivable Ledgers were discovered. Trent used those to develop his “Early Ford Database “ that was published in Sep 10, 1997 and as mentioned above is on Carl Pate’s CD as well as Bruce McCalley’s CD (it is also available at the Benson Ford Archives in hard copy form in a note book). The good news they actually have the original ledgers. But unfortunately, they are missing many of the ledgers and therefore only have about 22-25 % or the serial numbers listed in the ledgers. The ledgers are by dealer (called agency back then). So for a given serial number you have to look at all the dealer entries until you find a given serial number or you prove that it was not listed. It is very time consuming unless you are phenomenal lucky.

If you are interested in pursuing looking to see if your serial number is listed there please review the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/72343.html?1226626548 for additional details.

Note Bruce used those accounts receivable ledgers to cover some of the 1912 serial numbers in his listing at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm "IF" your serial number is one of those listed -- it gives you the date the car or in the case of Canada the engine was shipped. Remember that is a subset of the already incomplete listing from the accounts receivable ledgers. So there are more serial numbers in the actual ledgers. Bruce’s listing does NOT include where the car or engine was shipped to, but the actual ledgers do normally have the location they were shipped to. For Canada that would have most likely been listed as "Walkerville."

Finally the late 1911 through 1912 engine numbers have a really wide variation. Below is a graph I made using the available information from Bruce’s CD on the 1911-1912 listing from the Accounts Receivable Ledgers. I dropped off the lowest and highest serial number from each month – so it could be a little wider in the spread than shown. But the numbers that are listed were shown “SHIPPED” during that month from the Detroit area (I would assume Highland Park – but it is possible that a “B” serial number was shipped from where it was assembled and that would NOT have been the main Highland Park plant.)



You can see from the graph that some months had a much smaller serial number range than other months. Additionally – this does NOT include the B-series numbers. That would further add to the problem. As the B serial numbers also had a wide range of when they were shipped.

Below is a photo from “The 1912 Factory Facts” that has the caption “One day’s output.” Possibly a first in and easiest to get out set up when someone went to get an engine?



Additionally, across the river from Detroit the University of Windsor archives have some of the ledgers from Ford of Canada and what they sold, when it was shipped, and the serial number.

If there is one or hopefully more individuals in the Detroit area that would be willing to help us capture the data from the accounts receivable ledgers (both the US and Canadian ledgers), I believe it could help us better understand the shipping policy (or lack of one) concerning the engines etc. Note, that the Benson Ford Archives as well as the Windsor archives will allow a user to set up a digital camera and photograph the pages at NO COST. We could then e-mail those to folks that are willing to help put the data into a database. A lot of typing – but something that is on my “bucket list” to do. If anyone is interested in helping to get this started – please let me know. The goal would be to make it available via the Bruce McCalley Memorial Library and Research Center. (Disclaimer – I haven’t coordinated any of this with anyone in the Model T Ford Club of America – but I suspect if we offered to give them the data they would appreciate it. I’m hoping to land a volunteer job there in about 4 or 5 more years.)

Respectfully submitted,

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Colin,

One additional item I forgot to add. This is from memory -- so not as reliable as from notes or reference material. -- not only were engines sometimes stored on the USA side (B series as well as normal serial numbers) but for the 1906-07 time frame (Model N, R, & S) Ford of Canada had an arrangement with the the Canadian customs. That allowed them to bring USA made parts across the river and store them in a building in Canada. But the customs would not have to be paid on the part (from a radiator to an engine) until the part was withdrawn to be assembled into a car. That way Ford of Canada could keep expenses delayed.

Additionally I think I remember (and this is more in doubt than the first memory) -- in the case of a car being exported -- some of the customs was refunded or credited back to Ford of Canada. I.e. it didn't stay in Canada -- it was just passing through.

If anyone has some information to confirm or correct either one of those memories of mine, please let us know.

I suspect Bill Mowle would probably know one way or the other but hopefully someone reading this will also know the answer and/or have a reference.

Respectfully submitted,

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I have an article on B serial numbers from 1911-1912. Send me your e mail and I will e mail it to you. Marv.