I read Jim Patrick's method of sealing an engine with The Right Stuff, including applying it to bolt threads that pass through into the block. How difficult is it to remove those bolts at a later time? Thanks, Bill
I can't say for The Right Stuff but Permatex thread locker comes in various strengths and colors, purple, blue, red and green. The low strength purple, medium strength blue, permanent strength red, penetrating grade green and high strength red all release at 300 degrees F, the high temperature red will release at 450 - 500 degrees F. Check the products specs and it may tell you at what temperature it will release.
RTV sealants like The Right Stuff cure to a rubbery consistency. I have found threaded fasteners to remove easily with hand tools. They often will not spin off easily with fingers even after being loosened with tools if there is residue in the threads. Most (or all?) RTV's cure from moisture in the air, so I don't apply it to the full length of fasteners that go a long distance thru a hole, just at the ends.
I use Permatex 51813 Anaerobic sealer on most engine bolts that could leak, it is not thick and a very small amount seals. On gas fittings I use Permatex white thread seal. It comes in a small tube. Nether lock the bolts, just seal. For gaskets I have gone back to Permatex No 2 non hardening sealer.
The Right Stuff is probably similar to the Anaerobic sealer only used for gasket replacement and each may be made for different setup and cure specifications. Right Stuff might be more of a glue and the Anaerobic might be more of just a sealer.
The Right Stuff is the wrong stuff for me. I'm too slow. It starts to set up before I'm ready. I use Permatex Ultra Black. It seals well, and I have no trouble removing bolts sealed with it. I can also remove it easily with a wire brush if I ever have to redo a job.
Thanks! I have another engine that somebody glued together and I would bet I will have to use the blue wrench to get it apart. No way do I want to put myself in that fix with this engine. Cheers, Bill
As many know I am a Lover of the Permatex Ultra Black. I believe it is the same as the Right Stuff but a much longer cure time so it is perfect when we need more time for assembly.
Seldom do I use a gasket but only a small bead of the sealant. Back in the old days of RTV products when we took apart things the GE RTV would peel off in a long string and have evidence of oil leaking through under the gasket. This new product seems to adhere extremely well if the surface is oil free. This gives us the leak proof seal that we want so we don't have oil drips marking our parking spots. I do carry cardboard but its only for courtesy.
Taking things apart I find is best done with a thin putty knife and a small hammer to insert and open the seal. This has never been a real problem for me except on my hogshead when it was in the car. Always much easier when outside of an early car anyway.
Lately I find a use for it every day. Yesterday was a repair on the belt for my pants!
You will find so many uses for Ultra Black when you have it in your shop. It is a great adhesive and really sticks and is very durable and flexible. I believe it's related to the TV promoted Flex Seal we see with the boat patched together
William. Very easy. The Right Stuff is not a thread locking compound like locktite. It just seals the thread. I rebuilt my engine in 2010 using the method I described and 8 years later, my engine is still free of leaks. I will use nothing but The Right Stuff. In 2010, I asked a lot of questions of the Forum members regarding The Right Stuff and Ultra Black and did a lot of research online and the answers I received helped me to conclude that, for me, The Right Stuff is the best sealant there is. The most important thing I learned is that The Right Stuff is impervious to oil, while Ultra Black is not as impervious to oil as The Right Stuff. Jim Patrick
Hi Jim, I really enjoyed your post regarding methods and materials to seal your engine. I am re-commissioning a car, so I will want to open the engine up for rebuilding somewhere down the road. Both of these products sound like they have their place! Thanks, Bill
Guess I'm just old fashioned. I have used RTV and will probably continue to do so, sometimes in some places. However, I'm a fan of Permatex #2, the non-hardening type. Seals good, and removes easily when you have to open things up down the road.
>>>I will use nothing but The Right Stuff
Agreed. Recently assembled a part, made a mistake, disassembled it a week later. The bolt threads had RS embedded in them, just as you would hope for. The fasteners came out ok, cleaning the dried RS from between threads was a bit of a challenge... which is exactly what you would want.
One last important comment... whatever solvent is in "Tub O Towels" cleans RS squeeze out very nicely. So you can assemble then clean the mess very easily even if RS has started to set a bit. (and if you have not used Tub O Towels yet, you should)
Thank you, Bill. I hope my method works as well for you as it has for me.
Many choose not to use gaskets with RTV. They are correct in that RTV alone is sufficient to seal the joint but need to take into consideration, the 1/16" thickness of the gasket and the fact that the engine was designed to allow for the 1/16" thickness and to not use a gasket could cause a slight misalignment of the parts. Also, using gaskets allow for easier disassembly of the engine when it comes time to rebuild. Not only does a gasket provide a slight gap into which to insert a prying tool to pry the parts apart, the gasket will help in separating the parts by tearing in half before the RTV will. Jim Patrick
Again, Jim, thanks for the insights. I have not personally disassembled an engine designed expressly for RTV form-in-place gaskets, but I believe they have features added to the mating surfaces to give the seal the best chance for success. My T is crude by comparison, but I like it all the better for it. I spent 3 hours yesterday straightening the pan, inspection cover, and horseshoe gizmo to get them all to mate together, and was amazed at how soft the small parts were. No wonder they were distorted. It seems the gasket is a must here to take up any gaps. In this location, is it best to follow your glue one side / wait / glue the other side procedure? Or do it all at once? Have you tried using copper crush washers under the bolt heads to seal them, or just the RTV?
I'm with Steve. The Right Stuff cures too fast for assembling rear ends, crankcases and the like. Ultra Black is my choice. Its effective, has a slower cure time and being black, blends in.
Bill. On all areas where a gasket is used, I would do one side of the gasket, leaving the other side clean, then align the parts and bolt them together tightly and let sit overnight. The next day, unbolt, separate the parts and apply the Right Stuff to the remaining side, align and bolt tightly together. Do this only when you are ready for the final assembly of the engine. This method takes care of the complaint that The Right Stuff sets up too fast and provides you with all the time you need to do it right. It also prevent the gasket from shifting or tearing between the parts, which is usually the source of leakage.
Here is the original 2012 thread in which I detail my method for reassembling my engine that Bill is referring to: www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/313252.html.
Jim, So you think there's a performance difference between the Right Stuff and the Ultra Black?
From what I could find it is only the cure time. With the RS designed for immediate use after installation and UB requires a longer cure time.
I'm not sure of any real problem if the working time is exceeded a bit. That's a great reason for using a gasket but I've never had any leaks where I didn't use one.
My latest success story using Ultra Black is when I patched a huge hole in the bottom of my bass boat and patched it up only with some Ultra Black smeared on a piece of screen door. LOL
Sorry I just couldn't help it.... But I do wonder if it's not the same stuff?
Anybody want to reveal their best price?
Gene, I suppose that the only true way to determine the difference between The Right Stuff and Ultra Black is to use both and even then, I doubt if you would see a difference as both are very good depending on who you talk to.
In 2010, when I was asking questions about the difference, by far, the opinion was that the Right Stuff was the best and when I purchased both to read the specs on each, the Ultra Black specs said it was resistant to oil, while the Right Stuff was impervious to oil.
Faced with the evidence, research and opinions of the respected members on the Forum, I chose the Right Stuff and do not regret it and I suppose that many having a preference for Ultra Black can site the same type of factors causing them to make their choice. To each his own.
Everyone is correct in their assessment that the Right Stuff has a relatively short cure time, which is why I devised the method of doing one side of the gasket at a time, but even if one uses Ultra Black or another RTV, the method I devised, though time consuming, is a superior way to assemble an engine. Jim Patrick
PS...because anyone who has ever assembled an engine, knows that, if one tries to hurriedly assemble and align two heavy parts together before the RTV sets up, while attempting to position a fragile gasket between the two parts, the likelihood exists that the gasket will slide out of position, buckle, or rip, which is very frustrating and will be a source for oil leaks. If one applies RTV to one part and one side of the gasket, leaving the other side clean, it is much easier to align the two parts. After bolting the parts together tightly and letting it cure over night, the next day, it can be unbolted and the other part and gasket half can be done with the confidence that the gasket will not move out of position while you are perfectly aligning the two parts. Jim Patrick.
Here are the sheets on both products. These are definitely worth the time to read.
Some of the basic differences are Ultra Black is silicone, The Right Stuff is an elastomeric rubber. UB has a top,continuous rating of 400, TRS of 450. Both have an intermittent max of 500. The chemical resistance statement of both are identical. There are also differences in cured properties, most notable is UB has a gap fill specified of 0.25",
TRS also mentions superior bonding to oil contaminated metals.
What about the "Left Stuff"?
Put me down as a believer in using The Right Stuff.
Agree with Jim Patrick on the ideal procedure of doing complicated assemblies in two stages.
I sometimes modify this procedure by doing one side of the gasket (against the least flat surface) in Right Stuff and the other side with Permatex Aviation Sealant to allow for future removal. Example pan to block and pan to hogshead — TRS on the pan side of the gaskets, Permatex Aviation sealant on the flat machined block and hogshead surfaces.
Besides the usual purposes, I have successfully used TRS to seal several cracked water jackets, two leaky radiators and a pinhole leak in my air compressor tank.
Following is (I hope) a legible copy of a writeup I did for our local club on a water jacket repair with TRS.
Forgot to mention that water jacket repair was done four or five years ago and is holding just fine.
Hey Chris, I don't know if you stole that idea from me or I stole it from You but I know that it works Very well and will outlast a JB weld or an epoxy repair because it remains flexible. The guys here in my T clubs nicknamed me "Ultra Black"
My difference is that I keep a couple of tubes of Ultra Black handy and have mostly used that for repairs. Both are miracle products. Some stores don't carry much selection of the Right Stuff because it cost quite a bit more.
Gary, Thanks for posting that spec sheet
I've always thought Flex Seal like on TV was a very similar product and available in a spray can at Home Depot.
Another great use is for patching a tear or worn area on a vinyl seat or top and of course for gluing on that seal to the outside of timing cover. I've recently found it's working nicely as a cushion and wear protector around the edge of my radiator where the hood rubs against the brass!
Someday we should make a list
If you ask me, which you didn't, the right stuff sticks way better when you can't get all the old oil off, like it says above. I also find those guys to be very modest concerning gap fill, I've used it when the gaskets were missing, and I had to fill about 3/4". Reo truck, first time I ever tried it, RTV, can't remember what kind, but sold me right there, in about 1973. Dave in Bellingham,WA
Hey Gene, I dunno if either of us stole the idea from the other, but it's a great way to achieve a long-lasting and dirt cheap repair.
I must confess that although I sing the praises of The Right Stuff I've never actually tried Ultra Black, so I can't say from personal experience that TRS is any better than UB.
I'll be using The Right Stuff to seal the rivets on the inside of my 1911 pan this week.
Would you all agree that one significant source of leakage is where the oil seeps under the two threaded bars on the inside of the oil pan that secures the oil pan bottom access panel to the bottom of the oil pan?
Even if gaskets are used between the access panel and the oil pan and the Right stuff is used on the gasket and the threads of all of the bolts, oil can still find its' way under the bars, to the bolt shafts and out from under the hex head of each bolt.
Therefore, it makes sense to secure the oil pan access panel securement bars inside the oil pan, in place, with a bead of the right stuff and then bolt tightly, overnight, using all of the bolts for even distribution, to prevent oil seepage under the bars. This would act as an interior gasket against this occurrence.
I don't have a problem there, I use a little sealant on the thread of each bolt.
If the bars on the inside were permanently secured to the inside surface of the oil pan, RTV sealing the threads would be sufficient, but this is not the case. The oil can bypass the sealed threads by seeping under the securement bar, between the underside of the bar and the inside surface of the oil pan, making its' way directly to the bolt shaft. I suppose simply sealing the threads would work if you put a glob of RTV at the base of each bolt so that the RTV would squeeze into the hole and stop any oil that managed to make its' way to the bolt shafts. Jim Patrick
Timely post. I am about to seal up the inspection cover, and was going to tack the bars in place to make it easier to thread the bolts. I will think about this some more! Bill
I tacked mine it place and no leaks. Like Gary says a little UB or TRS on the threads as you screw them in works for me.
Just spot tacking the bars will not stop the seepage. The oil will still be able to seep past the tack weld and make its' way to the bolt shafts if the edge of the bar is not totally welded or sealed with RTV all the way around the bars. The threaded bolt holes must be totally sealed and isolated from the oil in the pan to prevent oil seepage under the bar. I don't know if that much weld would distort the pan, so I believe the best and safest way is to use The Right Stuff under the bars so that the entire underside of the bars are coated, then bolt in placed tightening all the bolts so that the RTV is spread under the bars, uniformly. The next day, the bolts can be removed and the gasketing method can be continued. Jim Patrick
I on't have any problem with leaks, and mine aren't welded. If you have sealer on the threads it won't leak.
Sorry, I was not clear. I planned to "tack" the pan rail in place with a couple of dots of sealant just to keep it in position while threading the bolts. No welding. It sounds like if I apply sealer just around the bolt holes and then tighten the pan rail in, that should seal it. Then apply some sealer to bolt threads on final assembly. Seal the gasket also, of course, with the Patrick multi-step method. Or am I mistaken? Cheers, Bill
Bill. That will work as long as the oil can't find its way to the holes between the rails and the pan. Clean both surfaces thoroughly. "Easy Off" oven cleaner is great for removing burnt on oil and residue. Follow up with lacquer thinner then sand with 120 sandpaper then wipe again with lacquer thinner.
Thanks! BTW, the data sheets are great info.