Shims in Model T Engines, from the Facfory

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Shims in Model T Engines, from the Facfory
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 12:36 am:

A while back, there was a post about whether the T Ford engines had shims put in the rods from the Factory, because they were not included in a Rod print.

In that case, it is NOT part of the Rods design, and would not be listed, with the Shim, on the Rod print.

Why, because the Shim would have it's own print, just as the piston, and rings would have.

So, I knew from past experience that it would be something rare, in a splash system, that Rods would not have shims.

So, we went around, and around. I was told that the Model T engines in the Ford Factory didn't have shims, because they were run in, which is true, that they were run in, like I didn't know that, as I learned how to read at one time also, I think it was on a Thursday!

But making a Rod one way for production, and a different way as replacement parts, didn't, and doesn't make sense. There is a lot more to that post that I won't go into now. Read it for yourself.

At that time I found in the Ford service, that they did have, on page 100, paragraph 393 say that the Rod had TWO paper shims. So I was still told that the Factory rods were different!


The T Motors were first run in, by an electric Motor, and when the Resistance dropped to a certain point, then the T Motor turned the same Motor as a Generator, to furnish the Ford plant with electricity.

This practice was carried on to the Model A, and Model B, and the A's, and B's had shims. The V-8, also went through that process, but did not have shims, as the V-8's were oil pressure.

So, this brings me to something to back me up.

On page 503, about the middle of the page, on the right hand side, in the ( Model T Ford Owner ), by Murray Fahnestock, it says.

( After the rod, and cap have been babbitted, they are assembled and Broached, with a .003 inch shims between the edges of the cap, and Rod BEFORE BEING Assembled On The Engine. )

Now, if you think you can read that and get a whole other meaning out of it, that the rods didn't have shim from the Factory, I have got to hear it.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 04:14 am:

o.k.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks NY on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 07:21 am:

I hereby decree that from this day foreword your way of stating things shall be called "Hermisms".

Thanks for the good info!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 08:50 am:

Is this the forum equivalent of talking to oneself?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 11:07 am:

Or brass shims? :-)

Chapter VII, page 197, Ford Methods and the Ford Shops Arnold & Faurote, 1915.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 02:11 pm:

Yup, this is it, Adam, you found it, "GOOD JOB ". Talk all you want, Rogers will listen to you.

Dan, I don't have that book.
I would have thought that the shims would have been Brass, as many of the other companies did, after 1915. Many gas engines had paper, as the part lines on most, were rough cast.

What is interesting to me, is the Ford Service book, says paper, and shows the new style crankcase.

I found in the Ford Owner, on page 504, that the last of the heavy rods were used between 1915, and 1920. The light ones, type " A " were used after, 1920, to, the later 1920's. I would think the Brass would at least, be used in the late Model T dipper Rods, which are clones of the 1928 Model A's.

Well, more research!


It is VERY important to have part lines, on any bearing, at least 90 % if not 100% flat, when mated. That is why many rods blow. Not counting a high speed shift, that is missed.

Thanks, Dan.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 03:16 pm:

Herm, What you need to do is get in your car and drive to Dearborn, MI and spend a few days at the Benson Ford Research Center looking at original Ford blueprints.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 03:22 pm:

Adam, what you need to do is read the information of those that took it down, and that were there at the time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 03:31 pm:

Yes Herm, like the guys who made the blueprints stored at the Benson Ford Research Center. They were there at the time too. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 04:40 pm:

Alright you guys! I should keep my big mouth shut I suppose, but I'm experienced enough with this forum to see that this discussion is about to become somewhat "hostile" again. I'm just an old guy of 76 years that isn't very good at anything, except that I do feel that I can judge "personalities" pretty well at my age, even if only be reading how and what they write! So, take this for what it's worth,.....

An old guy like me, differs from Mr. Kohnke in the fact that he is an absolute expert in what he does, and is a huge, huge asset to all of us, here on the forum and to the Model T "community" in general. Due to the expertise that he has developed as a machinist and particularly pouring, align-boring and machining babbitt bearings, he has probably earned the characteristic of being pretty "opinionated" as he is. I don't like the insulting and name-calling that he often displays, but I think I do understand how this happens:

Adam,....forgive me for using your post above as an example, but it's not a good idea to respond to someone like Mr. Kohnke by starting out with saying something like,..... "Herm, what you need to do is......"

There are "personalities" that take offense to being talked to in that particular tone. It would be far less "inflammatory" to merely suggest that it would be beneficial to (if possible) to make a trip to the Benson Ford Research Center sometime.

In other words, NOBODY likes to be told what to do. And some of us "old farts" have perhaps become a bit more "touchy" in that regard than others! An no, I'm not "preaching" about talking to others like,...."handling with kidd gloves". I'm just saying that it's no harder to speak (or write) with common courtesy rather than in a possibly "inflammatory" tone.

Okay,....I could have just simply said something like,....hey,.....nobody likes being told something that conflicts with their own personal opinion, especially if that "opinion" has been developed by years of "experience", but some of us "old farts" have become a bit more "touchy" in that regard than others. For what it's worth,....just trying to suggest that we all try to talk to each other like gentlemen and respect each other,....and by the way,.....sometimes that's even harder for us "old guys"! FWIW,..... harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 05:15 pm:

Just a curiosity question on what Herm has posted.
The burnishing of the engine changing configuration to generator, does any one have more info or photo's of this set-up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 06:44 pm:

U-Tube has all kinds of Ford Video showing that, some even with a narrator some times.

With in the last week I think, can't remember who, listed one on the form, I liked that one.

Oh, I think the post said something about making a Gas tank.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, February 06, 2018 - 06:47 pm:

Mr. Harold, you are a wise Man!

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 11:30 am:

As I've mentioned before, I wish the vendors would offer die cut .001 shims, so we can get accurate adjustments on our rods. I've been making my own for years, and it's a pain in the ass!


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