Original Valves?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Original Valves?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 11:48 am:

Is the valve on the right an original? Second picture is the keepers holding the valve in.

Do original valves have a small hole in the top or is there no hole there?




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 11:55 am:

Definitely not original to a Model T. Too modern. All T's had valves like the one on the left. Several have upgraded to the split keeper style.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 11:56 am:

Original valves are two piece and have a hole for a keeper pin. Neither of those valves look to be original. The one on the left does not appear to be a two piece valve and the one on the right uses a different keeper system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 12:11 pm:

Modern replacement, you will note in the Langs listing that the shaft is larger.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3052M.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 12:12 pm:

Original Ford valves are cast iron head and steel stem. Two holes on top to insert a pin type valve grinding tool, a suction cup tool is universal.



The Ford valve when worn and used over time is known as the Come-Apart valve :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James M. Riedy, Sandusky, Ohio on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 01:25 pm:

I had a two piece valve stretch on me this last year but did not come fully apart. Found it when a miss turned out to be the valve not closing thus no compression in #4 cylinder. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 03:32 pm:

Heads up!! The repro spring washers for the PIN style are too soft. The locking pin will wear it and you will lose a valve. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 04:04 pm:

This is a bit "OT" perhaps, but maybe beneficial, and just my "opinion" for what that's worth:

The "purists" won't like this, but I believe there is another feature that is really pretty poor design in my opinion. Besides the fact that even most "purists" admit that the original Model T Ford's original two-piece valves are poor design, or, maybe it's more fair to say that they were probably okay at the time, but really not designed to last 100 years! There is another feature of the original Model T Ford valve train that compares to the inherent shortcomings of the original two-piece valves, and that is the little pin thru' the hole in the original valve arrangement.

Because that little pin seats on the little cup-shaped washer (maybe it's called a valve sprint retainer, I don't know???) it takes all of the valve spring pressure and bears on that "valve spring retainer cup-shaped washer at only two tiny little spots on either side of the valve stem. And this is merely something less that a quarter inch of "LINE CONTACT" on each side of the valve stem. I'm sure that everyone who has ever disassembled Model T valve train components has observed considerable wear on that lower valve spring retainer from constant wear from that tiny little pin. It is pretty common to see where one side of the pin has worn completely thru' the valve spring retainer, leaving the lowered end of the valve spring cocked over to one side and the valve spring completely out of line. (....not good!)

Actually, it seems like I have always reassembled Model T valve components by turning that lower valve spring retainer cup (wish I knew for sure what they're called) by turning that little cup-shaped washer 90 degrees in hopes that it will stay that way and begin wearing in a new spot. Actually, I always feel guilty for not replacing all of those bottom valve spring retainer washers with new ones when doing a valve job.

And by the way (as usual, getting much too "wordy' here) but I believe that in recent years, there have been some poor quality "repo" parts manufactured, specifically those little valve spring retaining pins, because they have been known to be too soft and sometimes actually break. On one hand, I think a good practice might be to make your own replacement pins out of harder drill rod, but then again, that might cause even faster wear of that valve spring retainer cup-shaped washer "thingie", whatever it's called. (???)

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded "epistle" here, but all of the above to say that I believe the more modern valves with the modern, pretty much universally standard "keepers" that John Aldrich shows in his two photos above are a very, very good "upgrade" for a Model T engine when doing a valve job. I guess the engine builders that know a lot more than me can tell you what modern valves and related components will work well in a Model T engine,..... something comes to mind about small-block Chevvie valves as well as some Ford valves are a good upgrade. In fact, if I remember correctly, there is a modern Ford valve (or maybe it's Fordson tractor valves) that are just slightly larger diameter valve head and work well and allow cutting new valve seats to fit, rather than having to discard an otherwise good engine block.

Okay,... I'm just "rambling" now, but it's an interesting subject that really does deserves careful consideration when you've got valve problems with a Model T Ford,..... sorry for the ling-winded "epistle",.... harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 04:07 pm:

Dan Hatch - Simultaneous typing! You already pointed out the "too-soft" repop pins,.....sorry,..... harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 04:12 pm:

Dan H. - hmmm,.... bit of a problem here! In re-reading, it seems we have some disagreement here about which "repop" parts are too soft, huh? I've heard that the repop pins are to soft and will break, and you make mention of the "too soft spring washers"! Maybe one of us is wrong Dan, and then again, maybe both the repop pins "AND" the washers are too soft! ......???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 04:13 pm:

The only time the 24 Coupe has failed to make it home was when a “two piece” broke into two pieces. My friend Bruce use to say they were only good for throwing away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 04:21 pm:

Steve Tomaso - Are you with us here Steve? As a very experienced engine builder/rebuilder, what's your "take" on this issue with defective "repo" Model T valve train components? I think this issue deserves some careful "consideration"!

What do you think Steve???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 07:31 pm:

Those two holes in the top were also part of the manufacturing process to keep the two parts from separating.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 10:19 pm:

James

Interesting. Those blind holes only go a tiny way into the iron head?

I ground away this two-piece valve from a 1923 engine to show the steel stem in the iron head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 10:50 am:

The two holes also facilitated valve lapping. Numerous lapping devices in the day came with a two-pronged adapter to engage the holes and positively rotate the valve to lap it in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 11:04 am:

Neither valve pictured is original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sullivan on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 01:05 pm:

Pretty sure if you check a (modern) valve you'll find the stem is magnetic, and the head is not, hence, two piece, with weld. Dave in Bellingham, WA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 11:07 pm:

I don't know about the washers, but the new pins wear quickly. Use only originals.

For those who haven't seen one, here's an original two-piece valve. Steel stem, cast iron head.





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 02:46 pm:

Steve Tomaso - Bounced this thread of John Aldrich's back to the top as I was asking for your opinion (as well as any other experienced "T" engine builder) an opinion as to how to proceed during a routine Model T "valve job" in regard to worn and "repop" parts.

Specifically, on the pins, would you try to stick with originals, or buy "repop" pins from the major suppliers, or would you make your own out of drill rod?

Also, because it's common to see valve spring retainer washers with very worn indentations from wear from the pins, I'm wondering about just re-using originals and turn 90 deg. and hope they stay in that position, or replace with "repops"?

I notice in one of my latest suppliers catalogs (can't remember which one) the listing for the valve spring retainer washers says that they have been "hardened". (???) Wonder if you can believe that, or not. (???)

Also, maybe a "wild idea" here, but I wonder about the feasibility of obtaining a very small stainless steel flat washer (stainless for toughness and wear resistance) to lay flat inside the cup-shaped valve spring retainer washer so as to provide a tough and wear resistant surface for the pins to ride on???

Maybe "splitting hairs" here, but again, I've seen more than one valve spring retainer washer sitting cocked at an angle and crooked and out-of-line valve spring, due to the pin wearing to the point of completely breaking through the washer.

Somebody else more experience than me must have some thoughts on this issue, and it'd be nice to know Steve's or some other experienced engine rebuilders opinions, or if maybe they just turn the worn valve spring retainer washers a bit and let 'em start wearing the original washers at a new spot! (???) Steve,....anybody,....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 04:26 pm:

Harold,when Mike and I were working on my 1915 engine it got new pins and washers along with the valves. That engine had maybe a thousand miles on it when one of the exhaust valves quit working. That was because of one bad lifter. Apparently during manufacture it missed the hardening process.


The foot of the lifter was worn away almost completely. Fortunately the cam was OK.

But the point of my comment isn't the lifter. We found that several of the pins were also showing a surprising amount of wear for the amount of use they had seen. I wish I had taken pictures of them. Mike had some original pins and we used those when we put the thing back together. I remember Royce commenting that he would use only original pins, and after seeing those worn new ones I have to agree. Maybe drill rod would work as well, and maybe the new pins have been improved in the past couple of years, but I'll use originals from now on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 05:18 pm:

Harold: Here is a post from 2015 about the spring washers AKA #3056, valve spring seat.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/595508.html?1450555390
As you see many folks were having the same problem. I think the pin issue was solved, leading to the valve spring seat problem.
I use only modern valves and keepers now. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 05:19 pm:

Thank you Steve! Just the kind of good solid information I was looking for! Mike Bender and Royce Peterson's opinions about the pins pretty well convinces me that it's just one more reason to stick with "original" whenever possible.

On the last valve job I did, most of the valve spring retainer washers showed as much as 8 (4 pairs) of very deeply worn grooves from the pins. I have a feeling that those were original from the factory parts, because of most of the known history of the car. On the spring retainer washers showing 8 wear spots, I wonder if that might indicate three "valve jobs" since the car left the factory??? Once the pins begin to wear the washer after a new car left the factory, I don't see any reason why the washer would change position until the next valve job when the mechanic doing the work re-installs the washer in a new and different position. If I knew for sure that those washers never change position in many miles (and years) of running, I guess I'd stick with the originals and just try to start them out by trying to position away from previous wear spots (difficult) like I did on that last valve job with most of the washers showing 8 wear spots....unless I knew for sure that the "repops" REALLY are properly hardened as advertised, and then I'd just simply put in all new ones, because Lord knows,....they're certainly cheap enough at only a few cents apiece! (....if course, "cost" is not the issue here.) The issue is, a hung up and stuck open valve when a pin finally punches thru' one side of the washer!

Thanks again Steve for the info & opinions on the pins,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 05:29 pm:

Dan Hatch - "Simultaneous typing". That thread (with photos) covers just the issue I've been talking about! And I even participated in that discussion a couple years ago! I should get better at "searching the archives" as you did Dan!

I guess maybe the best thing is still to switch to modern valve train components as that thread suggests. I just always hate to give up on original Model T parts I guess, but as much as we love our Model T's, there are some modern "improvement" that are not readily visible, that really make good sense!

Thanks again Dan,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James M. Riedy, Sandusky, Ohio on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 07:55 pm:

If the pin hardness is the issue, how would some bearing pins from a newer style universal joint work or would they be to hard and brittle. Jim


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