Valve oil seal question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Valve oil seal question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 - 06:44 pm:

My valve stems are too loose in the guides leading to oil burning and carbon buildup in the engine. The guides are reamed out to the max and the valves stems are maxed out too so there is no cure with new parts. I have the modern valves which I think have 0.312 stems.

Modern car engines have a little seal that looks like a spark plug wire seal that slips over the end of the guide and limits the amount of oil that can get down between the stem and the guide. Does anyone know of a modern valve oil seal that would work on a Model T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 - 06:56 pm:

Neil, I think your referring to an umbrella type seal, but they would be upside down, thus not being effective.

There are positive type valve seals that slip onto a machined guide, and thus would work great. The problem is twofold though in that you can't get the tools in there to machine the guides OD to the proper size, and you still need a little oil to get up the guide for lubrication.

The best way is to have either valve guide liners or new guides pressed into the block. Then you can return to which ever size valve stem you wish. You would also have to do a valve seat grind after doing the guides, and if you have already installed oversize headed valves, then you may have to have new seats installed to restore back to a usable size.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 - 07:03 pm:

Consider knurling the guides


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor, Citrus Heights, Ca on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 - 07:15 pm:

The parts vendors carry a .342 over size valve, modern style uses modern split keepers and a reamer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor, Citrus Heights, Ca on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 - 07:19 pm:

Seeing that you already have modern valves, they may already be at .342 over size. So Knurling might be he only easy fix


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 - 09:37 pm:

Some automotive machine shops use these http://www.sbintl.com/KLine.html If there is a way to get them into a T block I think they would work great. I have them installed on any motorcycle head I work on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 04:13 am:

The K liners John shows are commonly use in this application. A good machine shop can handle this, but the block may need to be out of the car for access.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen, South Texas on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 07:04 am:

APCO produced aftermarket seals.





These were discussed several years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 01:44 pm:

Is that a Cool idea or what??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 01:50 pm:

The only issue I can see is if the washer is not locked into place, moving and rubbing on shaft and using too strong a spring to hold it in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 02:59 pm:

Mark - This was a good "discussion" on the forum, quite a few years ago as Stephan mentioned:

I'm the "Harold" that originally posted that idea at the time, and the "Seth" is Seth Harbuck who was an engineer who was a valued and frequent poster on the forum but for some reason, left the forum a long time ago. Apparently, Seth liked my idea and made a rough drawing of the intake valve seals that I had described, and Ken Kopsky improved the drawing greatly.

I looked for that previous forum "discussion" yesterday, but due to my lack of computer skills, was unable to find it. In that discussion, I believe I mentioned that the springs I used were very soft springs that were merely strong enough to hold the felt washers up against the bottom of the valve guide. The slight spring pressure merely adds a very slight amount of pressure to that which is afforded by the valve spring. So,....what can that hurt, right? And the slight clearance between the soft flat washer and the hardened valve stem should be no problem either, even if there were to be metal-to-metal between soft washer and hardened valve stem.

I looked (unsuccessfully) via "keywords" and "MTFCA/Google" for that forum discussion of several years ago, because I believe it was a very good discussion. I made several points that apparently an engineer like Seth Hardback took no exception to,.... some of which were that these little valve guide oil seals were cheap, easy to install with no tools, all available at any "big box" hardware store, and were successfully installed in my '23 Roadster, simply because of worn guides in an otherwise strong running engine, which at that time, I did not wish to rebuild (or, have rebuilt "YET".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 03:03 pm:

Oops,...one point I forgot mention, which I suppose is fairly obvious, is that these little seals are only necessary on the four intake valves, as there is only vacuum on the intake valves, and the exhaust valves would be too hot for the felt washers to survive for very long anyway!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 03:07 pm:

Harold thanks for the info and is this the one;
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/312213.html?1347826923


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 07:33 pm:

Thanks all.

Knurling will improve the fit but I am skeptical that it will stop the oil from being sucked up the intake valves. The guide liners that John shared is the proper way to go but I don't think I am ready for new liners with all expense and work. The clearance is not all that bad. I did download the catalog from K Line and they sell valve seals. The seals are designed to control the oil flow, not eliminate it. The stems still have to be lubricated. They sell them in various sizes. The only problem is the seals have a steel part that fits over the valve stem so it may not work in the T. The OD of the T valve stem is rough cast.

A Google search for valve seals yielded tons of different ones. Whether any of them will work in the T I don't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 09:49 pm:

Thanks Mark - Sure don't know why I couldn't find that,...???

Neil Kaminar - To repeat for the benefit of anyone who might have missed this point, the springs I used were very soft, and could be fully compressed between thumb and forefinger. I don't see how that could add enough additional spring pressure to be considered a problem. Also, I don't believe that the hole in the felt washer will become as oversized as the worn valve guides in 15 minutes.

Also, I cut new valve seats with Neway carbide cutter, and put new stainless steel valves in the engine I talked about that had the worn guides, and those valves had very smooth stems. The four home-made valve guide seals I made with just the cheap standard hardware parts I collected at Lowes seem to work just fine for me, and they were very little additional trouble to install. I never could get that engine to idle right, and the first immediate improvement I noticed after installation of the seals was the very smooth idle. And that has lasted a lot more than 15 minutes,.....FWIW,....harold


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