Need help figuring this out.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Need help figuring this out.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 12:22 pm:

Something's going on in my T and I haven't been able to figure out what it is. Yesterday while driving, I was sitting at a stop light, I heard a small "pop" (not a big bang, just a slight pop), and the car began creeping forward. I thought maybe the clutch arm bolt had slipped off the ramp, but it was fine. I tightened the bolt about two turns, just to be sure it was moving the clutch enough to release it. I removed the floorboards and inspection plate, and everything looks as it should. I can see that moving the brake lever moves the clutch ring about 1/4" or more, but the clutch is not releasing. With the lever back, turning the crank results in forward movement of the car. The lock nut on the low band adjustment is tight, so it hasn't moved. I still have the 13/16" space between the drive plate and clutch ring. Everything I can see looks fine.

I just rebuilt this engine and tranny a month or so ago, and I've driven it several times without incident. It was a thorough tranny rebuild, with all the aligning and balancing accomplished. I'm hoping not to have to pull the engine again, but I can see the writing on the wall. Any ideas of other things I can check with it in the car, before I pull it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 12:58 pm:

Mike,

This will be interesting -- I don't recall this one being discussed but I'm sure with 15,000,000 Ts it has happened to someone in the past.

Some additional details that may help others with coming up with a possible solution:

Did you go back with the standard transmission disc or did you go with one of the alternatives and if an alternative which one? Jackrabbit clutch etc?

What year range is the transmission? I.e. improved transmission or the earlier style?

And does it have a matching year pan and hogshead?



The only thing that comes to my mind is to ask what was the condition of the lugs on the brake drum? I recall reading that sometimes they become grooved and a clutch disc can stick there and cause the car to "creep forward." But you mentioned the transmission had been rebuilt. So those probably were checked during the rebuild and smoothed down or replaced as appropriate. (Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/80460.html?1233543131 ) Disclaimer - I'm more interested in what the other folks will have to share since I do not have any direct experience with this.

I hope someone or ones can help you discover the cause and that hopefully it will not require an engine removal etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 01:01 pm:

And at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/671109.html?1472497583 someone forgot to safety wire the clutch drum bolt and the bolt had backed itself completely out.

Respectfully added,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 01:19 pm:

If you have a drum with replaceable shoes, maybe one came apart and is jamming things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By FreighTer Jim on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 01:35 pm:

Mike,

Somehow I figured this would be a thread seeking advice about the female persuasion .....

FJ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 02:28 pm:

About the same thing happened to me. Pulled into my back yard and heard a pop. I did not have a neutral anymore. Turned out to be a break in my brake drum shaft right at the driven gear.

That was just my luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 02:45 pm:

Did you use the standard Ford clutch disks or a newer after market type? Sometimes the later clutch disks have a problem but usually cause slipping. I would think what Hap stated is the most common cause of the problem or something else has cracked or broken. It is also possible that if you re-bushed the triple gears, that one or more is binding. Or band lining on one of the bands has gotten loose and is causing the band to bind. Could even be a cracked drum.

Sorry to say, you might be in for another tear down :-(
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 03:04 pm:

When I lost my clutch and was stuck solidly in gear, it turned out to be the 3330 spacer stuck between the brake and clutch drums due to wear on the face of the brake drum. That's probably not the problem here, but I suppose it's possible.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/780721.html?1504242648


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 04:00 pm:

It seems to me that I have a watts clutch. Iíve done a few recently and I get them confused, but I think this one is watts. Yes I rebushed The triple Gears, but I always make it a point to leave them loose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 05:12 pm:

I had a T one time that broke (sheared) the tip off the keeper/set-screw that holds the centerpiece for the inner clutch discs in place. Rotational motion is controlled by keys and keyways, The set bolt only holds the centerpiece from moving forward or backward. When the tip on the end of the set-screw sheared off, it allowed the centerpiece to slide back and forward causing several weird problems with the clutch. In my case, the sliding did not result in jamming the clutch. However, I suspect that was just a lucky happenstance. A few odd feelings from the pedal sent me to looking for the cause and I found the centerpiece sliding with pedal and handle use.
It very definitely could slip enough to allow the discs to slip off one end or the other and result in jamming the clutch into high gear.
I think it would also be possible for a single inner disc to slip off and it could mostly float between its two outer discs with minor pressure against the centerpiece causing some forward creeping. A disc in such a position would likely get broken around the inner tabs.

I don't know if this is your trouble or not? But it certainly is the first thing I thought of.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 05:52 pm:

This is a pre-'26 tranny, but it may be one with a late '25 brake drum which has the removable lug shoes. I rebuilt one of those recently but don't remember whether it's this one or another. I guess I'll need to start taking notes. :-)

I talked with Mike Bender this evening and he said it has to have something to do with either the clutch pack or the triple gears. I put the rear end on jack stands and turned the engine around using the crank to points where I could access each triple gear. None of them was frozen to its pin, so apparently it's something in the clutch itself. I'll get started pulling the engine/trans tomorrow. I'll be sure to report back after I have some time to do some digging into it. (And I did SUCH a nice job of sealing up the crankcase and hogshead, just a month ago.) :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 06:47 pm:

This is a tranny from a very low-mileage 1915 engine, which had a cracked low-speed drum. It sat in someone's shop for about 40 years before I bought it from him. And I did use a Watts clutch when I rebuilt it. (It's all coming back to me now. :-) )

I got the engine/trans out of the car and took the hogshead off, so I could inspect the triple gears. They are fine. So I took the crankcase off in order to take the tranny apart.



The first thing I noticed is that the reverse drum and triple gears could move fore and aft about 1/8". Hmmmmm. I also noticed that the brake drum was tight on the main shaft. It didn't seem tight when I put it together, but it is now. I didn't have any kind of puller big enough to grab the drums, so I had to use two crowbars to pry the drums off. I took the drive plate off, and this is what I saw.



Looks like someone forgot to put a cotter pin in the set screw for the clutch drum. :-( This part looks OK, except for the missing set screw.



So I pulled the clutch drum out and found this:







Lots of brass residue from the thrust face on the brake drum. The key in the main shaft had cut a groove into the thrust face about the depth the reverse drum was moving fore and aft.



Fortunately, the main shaft looks to be OK and it measures .9975", which is only a half-thou of wear. So I'm thinking that if I put new bushings into the brake drum and be sure the reaming operation leaves enough clearance (maybe use some time-saver after reaming), I should be able to put it all back together. And this time, I guarantee that I won't forget to install a cotter pin in the set screw. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 07:23 pm:

Had the exact same thing happen to my '21 Roadster! In my case, the bolt fell out of where it got lodged and I found it sticking to a magnet. I plucked it out and drove the car for many more years, until it had to come apart for something else. I only did so because I remembered the high speed drum was pressed on tremendously tight, and really, where was it going to go. Anyway, the drum was still tight and I just popped the bolt back in, with a cotter pin of course. Sorry you weren't as fortunate, (lucky...).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 09:50 pm:

Wow. The "good news" "bad news" of it. A bunch of work you wish didn't have to be done over, but looks like problem found and no serious damage. Like Jerry V O, mine had not done any damage, but likely would have if I had driven it much farther. The most difficult part of the repair to mine, was getting that sheared off end of the set screw out without a full disassembly.

Thank you for the update!


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