What do you do with an engine that needs to go above 0.080?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: What do you do with an engine that needs to go above 0.080?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Sebaugh in Jackson, Missouri on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 12:28 pm:

If you have a T engine that needs to go above 0.080 over, what is the correct direction in restoring it? The largest size pistons I can find is 0.080 over. Can it be sleeved and will it work correctly?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 12:39 pm:

Steven,
Last year I made the machine shop sleeve a 1912 engine and made it back to standard with good cast pistons. It runs great.

So I should say sleeve it and make it run again.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 12:53 pm:

I had an old sleeved engine bored oversize last year. The sleeves survived fine for years.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire (La Florida!) on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 12:58 pm:

I get concerned above .060 but that is me so at .080 I would have it re sleeved it will then be like a new engine. JMHO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By samuel pine on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 01:38 pm:

Simple Sleeve it back to standard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Sebaugh in Jackson, Missouri on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 01:47 pm:

Thanks for all the information. That helps me out on looking for and buying a block. I just wanted to make sure, that I was not just buying another boat anchor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 01:58 pm:

Before buying a block that needs to be sleeved you should know it will cost around $400 to sleeve it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 02:17 pm:

Make sure who ever you get to do it, knows the correct way, or you could end up with a mess. All machine work has to start from the pan Rail, to square all the machine work. Also the sleeves have to set on a ledge, If you want a good job, every thing has to be right.

By all means, DO NOT let anybody use a boring bar that sits on top of the block, and bolts down, to bore the holes.!!!!!!!!!!

Herm.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 03:33 pm:

One direction you could take would be sending the block to Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 05:50 pm:

Absolutely! Listen the Herm (Kohnke) on this!
Many years ago, I went to a swap meet and saw an engine a fellow had taken just to display it and create conversation about. He had found and bought it just because it was so incredible to look at. The block had been sleeved, many years earlier, the obviously ran for quite a long time, based upon wear in the other sleeves. But the job had not been properly done. There was no "shelf" (ridge) at the bottom of the cylinders to hold the sleeves all the way up (the head will keep a sleeve from rising too high in most engines). The sleeve slowly crept down, probably a very little bit at a time. Until. The top piston ring went over the top of the sleeve, and YANKED the sleeve down.
What a MESS! The piston pulled the sleeve a little farther down before the sleeve pulled the top of the piston off. One turn of the crank later, the remaining lower rings also popped off the top of the now lowered sleeve, and yanked the sleeve even farther down, which now tried to exchange places with the crankshaft. Parts of sleeve, chunks of broken piston, and a flailing rod beat that block to ruin.
He had the majority of the engine, just as it had been when removed from the car years earlier, on display. Complete with part of the sleeve still wrapped around the rod and crankshaft.

Truly, a sight to behold. And a learning experience for all that saw it.

As Aaron G says, factor the cost of sleeves into the price you pay for an engine. For cost reasons only, common '20s era model T blocks are probably best replaced by blocks that do not require sleeves. However, sleeves themselves, properly done, are not a bad thing. Brass era blocks often require sleeves, and are valuable enough to be worth the cost. Many horseless carriage era cars get sleeved simply because of rust damage to their ancient cylinders. Hundreds of those cars get toured extensively, rarely with any trouble from the sleeves.

Are you considering that 1912 block in the classified section? I have not seen it in person. But I wish I could afford it. It looks okay to me, and I do have a project pile that could benefit from a slightly earlier block than the one I have. But I cannot afford it now, so good luck! With whatever you are looking at.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Schrope - Upland, IN on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 09:09 pm:

I don't understand working from the bottom. Not saying it is wrong, just that I don't see what is wrong with working from the top. I've never sleeved anything, but have seen a few blocks bored and sleeved from the top. To me, it would look like a ledge at the top would be the way to go. The head will hold it down. All the diesels I've worked on had the ledge at the top.

Maybe you guys in the know could elaborate a little on the procedure of working from the bottom.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 10:33 pm:

What you are talking about, Mr. Fred, is wet sleeves. They have to be done that way, as they are different then what we are talking about.

With that said, there are dry sleeves that have a ledge on top, but they are no better the a straight sleeve, and you have to counter bore the block surface to accept the top sleeve edge. So if put in right, both work fine, but I just prefer the straight sleeves.

Thanks,

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 11:01 pm:

As I remember Howard Genrich Lucky 7 has been bored out to 0.125”.
Just saying :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 11:58 pm:

My ‘51 Ford F1 has a sleeve in one cylinder.
I don’t know why, the pistons are +.040.
I suppose it slung a rod or broke a piston or something at one time.
Anyway, I do not worry about it.
I have been driving it that way since 1999.
H &H in so. Cal sleeves every model A engine they rebuild, whether it needs it or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Sunday, March 04, 2018 - 12:41 am:

I bought a late 27 block out of Idaho that apparently been a stationary engine with a lot of hours on it. It measured beyond .080. I had it sleeved and fitted with standard size pistons. It is still on an engine stand in my shop. I was going to put it in my 27 coupe, but have since found a rebuilt .060 over short block that I have chosen to use and take advantage of the extra over bore. I have another 26-27 bare block that likely will have to be sleeved, too. I placed a .060 over piston in the bore and it appeared to have at least 1/32" play and would drop right through the bore.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, March 04, 2018 - 12:50 am:

The Wild Cherry race car is bored out to 3.880". Pretty extreme but that is racing. We have built a few T engines bored .100" over with success but you can run into problems with the head gasket. Dry sleeves should always be installed with a shoulder in the bottom of the bore to anchor the sleeve. It just takes the proper tooling to do it right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, March 04, 2018 - 01:28 am:

Fred,
To make it a little clearer, all it is at the bottom of the bore, is that the out side diameter of the sleeve when bored, falls short by an 1/8" or so to make the ledge for a straight sleeve to sit on.
Many a diesel dry sleeve are as you describe with a flange on the sleeve at the top, those we used to fit by shrinking with dry ice and would drop in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Sunday, March 04, 2018 - 11:44 am:

You can have your block/cylinders ultrasound checked. If there aren’t any prohibitively thin spots in the casting you can install larger pistons. I believe Egge makes pistons up to .125” oversize. Pistons in that size range may require modification of, or careful placement of the cylinder head and head gasket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Leonard on Sunday, March 04, 2018 - 09:46 pm:

Why cant you use a boring bar that bolts to the top of the block to bore the cylinders on a T??Just curious???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, March 04, 2018 - 10:17 pm:

Rob.
That's all I use, a Van-Norman, never had a problem.
In fact the only issue I've ever had was with a 1912 T block, that was re-bored by someone on a mill bore and used the pan rail for a level, the bore ended up some .020" out of square to the crankshaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Sunday, March 04, 2018 - 10:55 pm:

Rob, unless the boring bar is Brand New, the Bottoms are worn, so they do not sit at a Right angle to the pan rails, and will bore the cylinders off to the pan rails, or should I say crank, which is very important!

If that weren't bad enough, if the block surface is warped, and not going to be resurfaced, even a new boring bar, like that will not make it straight.

If the block has been surfaced before, the surface is more then likely off, because the machine shops that had a surface machine was a Van Norman surfacer. They look like a sink with a large grinding wheel laying flat, in the middle, and what looked like a large drain board on either side of the large flat grind wheel.

To surface a Block, or head, they just slid the block, or head from one side to the other, across the grind wheel. The Guys I talked to that run them years ago, said they weren't that great when new, but better then nothing. They also wore fast, as you were always sliding in grindings.

Once the cylinders are bored off with the crank, it would be like having bent rods in all cylinders.

There is more, but you get the idea.

Thanks,

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Weaver - Arthurdale, WV on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 08:48 am:

The machine shop screwed up on the original engine in my TT when we were having it bored out to take care of some scarring in a couple of cylinder walls. Was supposed to end up at .80 but instead ended up at .100. Put in the high compression pistons and the TT seems to love it. Haven't had any real issues. - Matt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 10:49 am:

I've always been told you can go .125 over, BUT once you go past .060 you can begin having head gasket problems with sealing between 1 & 2, and 3 & 4, due to the thin web between adjacent cylinders. Also, may have issues with the head gasket combustion chamber openings not large enough, or accurate enough, to clear the .125 over piston at the top of its stroke.

As for Herm's advice, I am not an engine rebuilder, but I know a few things about machining in general. For what that's worth, I agree with everything he stated, 100%.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 12:45 pm:

Ok, the head gasket still fits good, but after it is tightened it can slightly push out so the piston can touch, it's not much, but as you don't want that, you chamfer the tops of the pistons, for clearance. We have to do the same thing with the Model A's.

Never had a gasket problem, but we always surface the block, and use Indian Head Gasket cement.

While earlier blocks can be taken out to .125, the 26-27 blocks have more meat, an we haven't had any problem with them.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Leonard on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 04:19 pm:

Thanks for explaining, makes sense know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, March 08, 2018 - 10:14 am:

I have a few copper shim head gaskets if some one needs one. They are specifically designed to accommodate big valves, but could help with bigger pistons
I have had no problems using my Van Norman 777 cylinder boring bar. If I have doubts about the block deck being square, I check it first using a dial indicator on my milling machine and get it surfaced square to the skirt if necessary


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