What do you guys think of this wheel?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: What do you guys think of this wheel?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 11:00 pm:

Just got this rebuilt wheel back from a wheelwright. -Some things about it make me nervous. -Am I over-reacting or is something wrong here?














Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 11:02 pm:

I would suggest the wheelwright go back to school and take a class in woodworking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 11:33 pm:

The missing ball is easily replaced, but what's the condition of the cone? Are both cups smooth and free of cracks? If all the bearing parts are not up to snuff, you'll find that some are available and others are made of unobtainium. I've switched to Timkens, and there has to be a reason Ford did the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 11:41 pm:

Steve, it looks to me like there is only enough room for about 1/2 of a ball!? :-( , hence the spacer. Never seen a bearing set up that way myself. I've never messed with T ball bearings, but shouldn't there be a cage to keep the balls seperated? Wonder what that spacer is made from? Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 12:04 am:


No, there's no cage. The balls are held in the cups by snap rings.


The cups are often cracked.


The cones are often badly worn and pitted, and nobody is making new ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 12:31 am:

As far as the woodwork is concerned, I used a well known wheel right often praised here. I was very unhappy with the lack of attention to the actual assembly.

1st he used Phillips head chinese wood screws to hold the fellows to the rim. several of the screws were driven in so hard they actually were broken. The original wheels had long rivets and I sent a sample of the fellow with the original rivet for them to copy.

2nd, the fellows were not true to the rims. I had to retrue the rims and fellows. This was no easy feat. Now after much rework the wheels run true.

I contacted the person and really got the green apple two step of excuses. The new guy did it, etc ,etc. He finally offered to repair them with shipping at my expense. I chose to do it my self and do it right.

A very good friend of mine had 4 wheels made for his pre 1910 car from the same guy. One of the wheels from the set had totally different spokes in the same wheel. He had to send them back at his own expense for the guy to fix his own screw up. He got the same excuse it was the "new guy" and these sets of wheels were nearly 10 years apart. How long can you keep using the same excuse. I suggest this guy find a real quality control expert.

If you pm me I will share the name. I prefer not to list the name here. I have had a few sets of wheels made by Whitmers in Penn with incredible results.

just telling it like it was,

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Olson on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 12:49 am:

Sorry to hear about the wood wheel issues! One thing I would be concerned about is if all the spokes are in the hub tight as a couple look to be either partially installed or maybe not cut right to fit. That crack in the wood falloe where the end of the spoke joins into it would also be a concern as I'm thinking that could cause the spoke to become loose. The last brass T I had I was lucky enough to find a solid set of round felloe wheels with excellent original wood and tight spokes in them that I simply refinished, but I know that is hard to find now. Hope you are able to get it resolved. Some of the Amish seem to do fine wheelwright work as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 01:00 am:

Hmm.
A half ball space is not unusual. The balls should not be tight. And there should not be any sort of spacers involved (model T wheel ball bearings do not have a cage, but seem to work well without one). If that is a spacer in there (?), it would only serve to bind or interfere with the balls rolling freely (which is essential to proper operation of the ball bearings). Possibly, those balls are just a bit too small?
It should also be said that the size of the balls is very important. Slightly larger or smaller balls can be substituted, and can compensate somewhat for wear in the cone and cup. However, too large or too small (even by a small amount) can cause serious problems. Changing the ball size can also resolve that half ball space.
What is VERY important, is that all the balls must be precisely the same size. Any ball larger or smaller (even by about .001 inch), will improperly distribute the weight and can result in fracturing either the cone surface, or the cup.

As for the nicks on the inner edge of the cup? They are harmless. The balls do not roll on that inner edge. That said. The rolling areas of that cup look marginal to me. I think a better one is needed.

Thank you Steve J for some excellent pictures of bearing parts that clearly should not be used. While these picture show really bad pieces, it should be noted that good original type ball bearings need to have nearly PERFECT rolling surfaces. While minor chips in non-rolling areas won't harm anything? Any cracking in the cup would likely lead to a total failure some miles down the road. Any sign of rust damage or flaking anywhere near the rolling area is a big red flag.

As for authenticity. If I were a "true purist"? It might matter to me that my car had Timken type roller bearings instead of the "proper" ball bearings. However, my opinion, is that switching to roller bearings is a minor infraction, not worthy of getting upset about. I would use the ball bearings on a brass era car if I have good enough original bearings to use. If I lacked such nice original bearings? I would use the Timken types and be happy with them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 08:57 am:

My 2 cents worth on the bearing space... I have collected and worked on bicycles for years. I know we're comparing apples and oranges here but it is, and always has been common for bearings to have a half space left after putting in all that will fit.I don't think that is a problem. The wheel seems to have a few other issues though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 09:32 am:

I have several bicycles and I agree with Tommy, the space between balls is not a concern. The roughness of the bearing races would concern me more.

The flaw in the wood felloe and the mismatch at the base of the spokes can be fixed with some detail filing, filler, and sanding prior to painting. Just my opinion. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins Winnipeg,Canada on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 10:09 am:

Dad switched the 1912 to roller bearing, Me picked up 100 sets of nos bower bearing bought new races and 57 years later the bearing are still like new. Cheers Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 10:19 am:

SEND it back.For what that type work cost,it should be done right.. What it appears to me with my little bit of knowledge ,the wood was not dry enough and it dried more after assembly causing the cracks. As for the space,grease has to go somewhere.
That crack near the copper valve stem hole looks like if it expands,it could allow that spoke to come out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 01:27 pm:

Bob,

I see nothing wrong with the wood. Any small mismatch at the spoke shoulders could be rectified in a few minutes with a file. Besides being a slight cosmetic flaw, it is not a sign of problems. The gap between the felloe & rim, that you've indicated with a card, looks very minor. While the felloe may have a nice, accurate surface, the rim will not. There will be some slight roll-off across its face. You can't expect the felloe to follow the rim's contour totally. The splits in the felloe would not concern me. Sure, it would be nice if they weren't there, but they don't progress outwardly to the sides. In other words, they're closed at each end. The minor chip at the felloe joint is hardly worth mentioning.

The space between the balls is normal.

The chips you show on the bearing cup are old wear & tear that will not effect function. However, the tracks where the balls run in that cup are fairly well worn. For that reason, I would try to find a better bearing cup. Unless I misunderstand where the hubs & bearings came from, you can't blame the wheelwright for the condition of those things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john pawlowski - NE Pennsylvania on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 02:22 pm:

Bob Coiro,is this the same company that you used back in 2013?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 02:46 pm:

Okay, so I phoned the owner of the Wheelwrighting shop. -He did seem concerned about my lack of trust in the structural integrity of the wood and immediately agreed that I should send the wheel back for his personal inspection. -I guess one couldn't ask for more than that at this point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 03:11 pm:

John,
I'm very, very hesitant to mention a name in a public forum and thereby have even the slightest detrimental effect on a man's reputation while the jury is still out. -Given the conflicting responses to my post, I'm not absolutely certain there's anything wrong with the wheel—and if there is something wrong, there's no reason for me to suspect this wheelwright wouldn't make good on it, given half a chance. -I've had the car for going on eight years, now, and no Model T supplier has ever tried to put the screws to me, so I'm expecting things to work out okay. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 04:32 pm:

There is nothing wrong with the structural integrity of that wheel. I would use it in my car any day. But, I get it, it's your car and you want to feel safe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 05:04 pm:

I wouldn't accept a wheel with a split felloe. Personally, I don't think it should have even been shipped to you.

Regarding the "crotches" where the spokes meet at the hub: if you watch the factory film footage, you'll see workers using a file or rasp to even out the crotches around the hub.

That is something the wheelwright could have done for you but there is no reason you can't do it yourself.

See this video starting a 1:07 showing how wheels were assembled. 1:35 shows the filing of the crotches. I suggest watching the video at 50% speed as the film was running too fast when it was transferred to video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXkxl8dSXb4

As far as space between the rim and felloe is concerned: in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to put a card, shim stock or a feeler gauge between the felloe and rim. I think that maybe your pitted rim may be part of the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 05:40 pm:

Although the cracks may be just cosmetic, for what it costs to get wheels rebuilt I would expect better. If my car had to have two or more wheels rebuilt I would probably sell the car. Of course everbody's situation is not like mine. I'm guessing most of you have not been without income for eight months. At least I hope not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 07:30 pm:

If you look closely at all the spokes around the hub, there seems to be a pattern of one side of the spoke taller where it meets the other. I read on here once that the hub can be twisted slightly in the finished wheel before the holes are drilled and bolts inserted. This causes the wheel to become "clocked" was the term used and would make the hub slightly off center. The wheel in that thread was worse but that could be an issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Bond on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 08:35 pm:

Those splits in the wood will not get any better. As it continues to dry they will grow and even more cracks might be exposed. The defective parts need to be replaced. You'll spend a lot of time filling, sanding, priming and painting only to have the wood continue to split as you use it. Get what you paid for - new wheels.
Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Davis Houston TX on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 09:13 pm:

I'm taking 4 3x30 wood wheels and 3 rims to Chickasha They came off a 24 touring. The wheels are solid and rims not rusted out. I can's use um so call me if interested 281 451 9949. I'll set up next to Tim Eyssen......Thanks.....Jerry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Mc Willie on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 09:15 pm:

Those splits SCARE me. That felloe looks like it would easily come apart and separate from the rim under the right (wrong) conditions. I would not use it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 09:32 pm:

Some wood issues for sure but I've never seen an opening left in a rack of ball bearings like that before. Could it possibly be a combination of worn balls and race? Not impressed with ball bearings there anyway. I know their used just don't care for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 10:04 pm:

Some of the ball bearings are a little textured and the race cup seems to be eroded as well. -And yes, if the ball-bearings are worn, it sure does makes sense that they'd be smaller and the gap, that much larger. -I ordered a couple of new-old-stock cups and new ball-bearings from Lang's, and I'll worry about how to get the old cup out when the wheel comes back from the wheelwright. -I'm guessing some mechanic or machine shop in my neck of the woods can take care of that for me. -

Meanwhile, I'm planning to ship the wheel back tomorrow and we'll see what comes of it. -Hopefully, I won't lose too much of the driving season, what with needing to wipe on some stain and apply nine or ten coats of varnish to the bare wood after the wheel ships back to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 11:20 pm:

I imagine you paid a first class price for the work. You did not receive first class workmanship. I am glad you are returning it to the builder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 10:17 am:

Bob,
I've ordered the NOS cup from Langs. And while they are indeed, "NOS" THEY ARE NOT fit for installation without re-surfacing. They come glass-beaded and with some pits from surface rust. If you put the new balls in those glass-beaded cups, you might as well throw some sand in the bearing with the grease. That rough surface will just grind away at the balls and the cup surface will wear also.

Put the cups in a lathe and re-surface them until they are polished. It is a lot of work, but worth the effort. Once you do that, you will get many miles of service from them.
Attached is a photo of what the bearing surfaces should look like. Do not install anything that isn't in polished condition.brg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john pawlowski - NE Pennsylvania on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 10:45 am:

A business in specialty products can not afford to put out a bad product. Word of mouth from customers will eventually take it's toll. The shame is that they usually start off with a great quality product get great customer response. They get overwhelmed and quality takes a nose dive. It's not fair that the customer should have to pay returned shipping for an inferior job. If this business had integrity the would pay for the shipping since they allowed inferior work to leave the shop. I shouldn't have to tweak anything when the part is returned.
Once you've lost reputation as a quality rebuilder almost if not impossible to regain. "I used to use so and so,they were very good,but I don’t know what happened their products are horrible now"
Just my two cents on the subject


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 07:36 pm:

Well, I sent the wheel back today with a very polite letter and we'll see what happens. -If the wheel shop proprietor decides the wheel is bad enough that he completely re-woods it, then yeah, by rights he should pay the cost of shipping—but if I complained about the shipping cost, he might be reluctant to re-wood the wheel. -The impulse to say, "Aw, there's nothing wrong with this wheel" would then be stronger and I could wind up not only eating the cost of the shipping, but also being stuck with an unusable wheel. -

If he gives a little, I'll give a little too and, eh, sometimes, that's just the way the world spins. -We need these guys; they need us; maybe it's best to just try to keep all parties reasonably happy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 07:42 pm:

James,

Your thoughts on polishing the balls and cups feel right to me. -I think, a lot of the time, our suppliers keep parts costs down by operating on the belief that old car owners tend to be mechanically inclined and can work with parts that are a good "starting point." -

I don't have that kind of talent or equipment, so, in this case it means I'll have to find a machine shop to do the polishing and to press the new cup into the hub. -I wonder how to go about finding a shop like that? -There are no more yellow pages in my neck of the woods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 08:06 pm:

This seems like a good place to ask where to buy a 1924 demountable rear wheel. The one I "rebuilt" is kinda crooked and still feels like it has a flat spot.

Replacing the spokes was a chore, so maybe someone can just finish my work properly?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 09:26 pm:

Chris, one good source of wheels is swap meets. Another may be the regular parts dealers. Most of them have used parts not listed in their catalogues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 09:44 pm:

Or put a wtb (wanted to buy) add in the classifieds. You'll need to specify which wheel you're looking for, there are several types. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 02:39 am:

If you get the NOS cups, check the outside dimensions too--I have found they don't always match the Ford specs. I think the NOS bearing pieces we're getting nowadays are from the quality control reject bin that someone "hoarded" many, many moons ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Saturday, March 17, 2018 - 02:29 pm:

David D theres a differance here in early and late style hubs that took the ball bearings
Very common have a gap less then a ball dia
In the bearing its self.
Polishing the races and cup yes agreed there
Main concern for me is the cracks in the fellow
Ball bearing gives a good bearing but the down side is theke alot more attention to maintain


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, March 17, 2018 - 04:35 pm:

When you look at the old time movies of workers assembling spoked wood wheels there is a worker filing the uneven spokes at the hubs to make them all symmetrical. I made about 12 wood spoked wheels with all the spoke blanks fitted in a jug and all turned on the lathe as close as possible to each other using a template and the still didn't fit perfect at the hub. I still had to file the spokes with a round at the hub to get them all even. In some cases it was only 1 or 2 strokes on the file and on some others it was 6 or 7. Most rims and felloes are not perfect, if you measure a rim it could be out by 1/8 - 3/16 out of round. These cars ran on unimproved roads and rarely got up to 20 MPH therefore a perfect wheel was not imperative. If you want a perfect wheel a little TLC may be required.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, March 17, 2018 - 05:59 pm:

Well, I sent the wheel back to the wheelwright and I assume he'll correct anything amiss, his excellent reputation being what it is. -Meanwhile, I have some new ball-bearings and a ball-bearing cup coming from Lang's. -A buddy of mine with a lathe has volunteered to polish the cup for me and I can polish up the balls with some rubbing compound and a clean towel. - Only problem then will be finding an establishment that can pull the old ball-bearing cup out of the hub and press the new one in. -I'm guessing my local garage mechanic can probably do that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 02:21 am:

Bob, the new cups should not push in very hard at all; as I posted above, check the OD of the new cups and the ID of your hubs. you don't really want much more than about .001 press fit!
Hey Bob, when was the hub ID changed? I know my '16's hubs are far different from later hubs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 09:01 am:

David,
If I had a set of gear-pullers, maybe one of them would be the right size to pop the cup out, but I'm fairly confident there will be some neighborhood mechanic who can do that for me. -It does irk me a little when I have to go running to a service center for help, though. -

I don't know any details of a hub ID change. -My car is a '15, but that doesn't mean the wheels couldn't have been changed out at any point during the non-collector-car period of its life (or even after). -I've heard enough stories of the difficulty encountered when trying to switch the older hubs to Timkin roller-bearings that I'm not going to attempt that. -

Of course, now we're getting a little close to the gun and there's very little time to get the wheel back, stain and varnish the wood, get the new cup pressed in and the wheel mounted on the car in time for the new season. -I already know of one rather nice car-show I'll not be able to make. - :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 09:13 am:

Bob, those early hubs don't have notches because they weren't needed. You can easily drive out the ball bearing cups with a drift from the other side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 09:38 am:

Steve,
Do I need to remove the inboard dust-cap and ball-bearings in order to accomplish what you describe? -
Did you happen to make a video of this procedure?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 10:13 am:

Nope, no video. The balls are retained in the cup by a snap ring and the whole thing should come out as a unit, or with the balls removed. I don't think it matters. Driving out the cup should force out the dust cap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 11:22 am:

Agree with steve long drift all you need well that and hammer
Tap in many spots as you want drive the cup out straight


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 01:49 pm:

We're talking about the outboard cup, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 07:36 pm:

DO be careful driving out the cups with a drift--try to drive them straight, if you cock the cup a lot, it will spread/crack the hub.
Don't ask how I know this, please!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, March 19, 2018 - 12:52 am:

Both cups should drive out from the opposite side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 10:40 am:

What's the wheelwright's verdict on your wheel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fords Masterpiece . nj on Friday, March 30, 2018 - 10:10 pm:

Any news Bob Coiro ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 12:18 am:

I sent the wheel back to the wheelwright's shop, having phoned the owner and asked that the boss himself inspect it for safety and quality. -He readily agreed. -When the wheel arrived back at his establishment, he phoned me and admitted that the work hadn't been executed very neatly and he'd certainly take care of that right away. -He assured me that the hairlines I saw in the wood were not cracks but mineral stains—in other words, natural figuring of the wood grain. -I had suspected that as a possibility myself, but definitely wanted it double-checked. -I would find it very difficult to believe he'd intentionally let a cracked wheel out of his shop a second time, after a customer had brought the problem to his attention and sent the wheel back to him.

The wheel arrived back at my house the other day and the unevenly joined shoulders of the spokes had been reworked very nicely and a chisel gouge in the felloe was gone, so he must have replaced that part of the wood.

So the windup is; he accepted my criticism without giving me the slightest argument, immediately fixed what was wrong with the wheel, and when he shipped it back to me, he paid the freight charge himself. -Mr. Stutzman stood behind his product and I don't think a reasonable customer could ask for more than that. -I would continue to recommend him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 09:39 am:

That is why he is busy. Cant ask for more. Glad you have your wheel back and it ended well. I bet the new guy learned a lesson that will stick with him. Thats how you learn. I learn more from my mistakes than from success.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 12:26 am:

So I got back from a trip out of state and finally got around to staining my third wheel (I've been getting one wheel re-wooded per year to make it affordable), and I promptly created some unnecessary difficulty for myself:

See, when you mix two different colors of stain to get just the right hue, repeating it a year later for the next wheel can be a problem if you lose your written notes—such as I did. -When the stain dried, it didn't match the two refinished wheels already on the car.

So I had to sand the stain off, which was pretty tedious. -Next step will be to re-mix the two stains in a different ratio and hope to get it right this time. -Live and learn.

After this one, there'll be only one wheel to go and only one more opportunity to mess up the four-year project. -I'm sure I'll find a way (Dad used to kid me by saying, "Don't get so upset about messing up all the time; it's not a complete waste. -You do serve as an excellent bad example").


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 12:37 am:

Now, if they were black, as God and Henry intended...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 10:30 am:

Y'know, Steve, that was my original thought, but when the first wheel came back from Stutzmans, the wood grain was so beautiful, I didn't have the heart to cover it up with opaque paint.

The broad expanse of the Touring body's side is a featureless black void screaming for a little texture and a set of stained & varnished wood-grain wheels really fills the bill—albeit non-authentically.



Well, who am I kidding? -I already have an aftermarket hand-Klaxon, an underhand front wishbone, electric lights all over the place and an electric starter, so my car wasn't going to win any awards for originality, anyway. -Give me credit for not pinstriping the body!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 10:33 am:

Extra credit for not painting it red !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 05:01 pm:

Red. -Hmm...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Danmark on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 06:29 pm:

For what it's worth - in the Danish Model T spare parts list of 1930 (covering all years) you can get spokes in color - wood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C west central, MN on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 09:00 pm:

Michael, very cool!
Again fair notice to the "opaque"'er's (black spoke'rs) out there!
We may be few, we may be quiet but the dealers and the parts books prove... We love beating that poor dead horse!
Nude spokes are cool! Oh wait, that doesn't look nor sound right...
Eh hem.
Plain, unpainted spokes are cool!
Shoot. That doesn't lock right either.
OK, we just don't have the heart like you say Bob. You all know my tongue is in my cheek.
Bob, thank you for the update. I was hoping for a good ending to this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 09:38 pm:

Duey,
How about "Natural Spokes"? . . . Oh, wait, maybe not. . .
Oh well, my spokes are black on Margaret and "patina'd" on Barney, and the '26 will probably get Ford wire wheels, so I'm not in trouble with what color to call mine! :-) And yes, natural finish does look nice, and I'll bet some folks did 'em that way "back in the day." 'Course, some o' them folks also put a LOT of "do-dads" on their T too. . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Loftfield on Sunday, April 22, 2018 - 08:03 am:

For those in need of the best quality wood wheels get yourself to Pa, Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois and find a proper Amish buggy shop. It has been too many years since I made use of this approach to know any by name, and they tend to not use any modern means of communication, but they ARE out there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 22, 2018 - 11:56 am:

That would be Noah Stutzman in Baltic, Ohio. He did Bob's wheels, and mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C west central, MN on Sunday, April 22, 2018 - 04:11 pm:

Steve, was that your crate or does Mr Stutzman provide that service?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 03:59 pm:

I know natural wood-grain spokes and felloes give purists apoplexy. -That's part of the fun of not using black paint. -

I like stain under my varnish and Old Masters oil-based wiping stain (Rich Mahogany mixed with just a touch of Crimson Fire) really richens up the look. -It doesn't take anything more than a clean rag to apply and there's not a whole lot of knack to it, just rub it in and wipe off the excess.



Of course, the early front wheels have ball-bearings, so one can't just stick a dowel through the hub and grip it in a vice because the dowel might damage a race-cup. --A pal of mine addressed that problem for me by machining up this nice holding jig.



I hang the wheel from a light block & tackle at a height that rests the metal rim against the edge of my work bench and that makes the wheel very easy to spin and flip while varnishing and sanding between coats.

Chip Button sent me his recipe for thinning and correctly applying varnish and turns out there's more to that than meets the eye. -He recommends Epifane's glossy marine spar varnish and the stuff really does look nice after ten coats are laid on. -Takes 24 hours to dry, though and that means only one coat per day for ten days.

Next to real winter projects like pulling a rear axle and rebuilding the differential (which, as it turns out, another friend of mine has the aptitude to do), my silly little wheel finishing job sounds pretty trivial—and it is, but having started this thread, I might as well see it through to the end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 04:35 pm:

Duey, I made the crate to send the metal parts to Stutzman. I supplied all the metal parts except the valve stem tubes. I made sure it was big enough to bring the finished wheels back to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, April 29, 2018 - 03:05 pm:

Well, I've got five coats of varnish on the wheel, which doesn't sound like much, but the sanding between coats and the application of varnish is a three-hour job each night. -Ten coats means over thirty hours of wood-finishing. -This is why I only do one wheel per year. -Not that I'm complaining—it keeps me off the streets at night. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, April 29, 2018 - 04:26 pm:

"Are natural finish wheels" era correct, authentic, however you wish to finish that question?
Well, first, I generally consider myself in the camp of Steve Jelf, (or on that question) and/or other people some would more likely call "purists". I have often uttered the phrase that "I prefer my wheels black like God and Henry intended." I like my cars to look like they were pulled directly out of an era photograph. And to that end, natural finish wheels just don't really do it for me.
However. The fact is, that this debate has been going on in the hobby for more than a half century. I know this because I came into the debate almost immediately after I started joining local clubs in the late 1960s. It was a topic of conversation fairly often before during and after club meetings. It was also often discussed in parking lot bull sessions on club tours and shows. At that time, it clearly had been going on for quite some time.
One day, at a local meeting of the Santa Clara Valley Model T Ford Club (probably '71 or '72), one of the club members brought in several clippings from original newspapers from the late 1910s and early 1920s. The clippings were advertisements for local carriage and harness shops, auto repair businesses, and even one from a local model T Ford dealer, to take your car's wheels and have the paint stripped off, and refinished in a nice natural wood finish. "Furniture quality" was mentioned in one of the ads.
In addition to that, I have seen copies of advertisements for Firestone demounable rim wheels sold for Ford cars before Ford offered demountable rims. Their ads often offered wheels in a choice of colors or finishes, including natural finish.
Either way, or both ways. Natural wheels may not have been offered in natural finish (before the 21 inch balloon tire wheels '25 and later), by the Ford factory. And, they may have in fact not been very common in the '10s and '20s. But natural finish wheels were in fact available in that era.
If you like and want them that way? That is your justification. That, and the fact that it is your car.
Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, April 29, 2018 - 06:03 pm:

That's one heck of a nice shipping crate you built, there, Steve. -I've been using the same tired cardboard box to ship my individual wheels back and forth to Stutzman's for years, now (with lots and lots of padding on the inside). -Mr. Stutzman does, however, provide an absolutely adorable little red rubber cap to protect the hubcap threads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, May 08, 2018 - 01:51 pm:

Having extended the simple job of finishing the wood on a front wheel to ridiculous lengths, here's what it looks like on the car:



One more wheel to go.


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