Recharge Magnets in Car - need help

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Recharge Magnets in Car - need help
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dunlap - Orlando, Florida on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 03:40 pm:

Iím attempting an I car recharge of the magnets. Iíve read old threads and have placed my compass in every possible place that could be the correct place. When I place the compass on the hogshead, the north point of the compass points away from the engine.


When I turn the crank slowly, the compass shifts slightly and starts to point the north toward the drivers seat.


It never goes any further than that and then it retreats back to the position where it points away from the engine.

I need help determining what Iím doing wrong or, alternatively, whether the spin of the compass so itís pointing toward the drivers seat is the position I need it in when I hit it with the 36 volts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 03:44 pm:

I know this may sound odd, but if you place the car in an east-west orientation, this kind of problem clears itself up. I was skeptical until I tried it and the compass behaved as it was supposed to.
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dunlap - Orlando, Florida on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 04:26 pm:

Marshall: I saw that recommendation in prior threads and thought Iíd give it a try. Itís sitting in an east west position in those pics. Iíve tried north south position, east west, inside garage and outside garage. Same results no matter what.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 05:01 pm:

Then too, there is a slight error in this set-up diagram.

The arrow should be pointing to the pin that the compass needle is turning on and not to the edge of the case, as shown.

The 1 3/4th inch number is good, but only if measured to the compass case center and not to the edge.

Compass


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Schrope - Upland, IN on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 07:30 pm:

The compass has to be level with the ground.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 09:38 pm:

Another note of caution.

One time, the terminal slipped off the Magneto post and put a 100 amps or so to ground on the transmission cover.

Then, I could put the compass any place on the pedals or cover and the north needle pointed straight to the cover, etc.

The cover was removed to access the coil ring and try again.

There was only one small area located below the cover starter opening that the south compass needle would point to.

The engine ran fine after that with a Texas T distributor set up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 11:38 pm:

There is an easy way to find the North - South position of the magnets.

Take off the inspection cover of the transmission and watch the end of the brass screws of the magnets. Turn the motor till the line between two screws is parallel with the upper border of the inspection port. The magnets are now in front of the coil centers. If your magnets are really weak, you can flash the magneto a few times and you magneto will be a live and kicking again.

If you want the North South right, you are maybe lucky and you are already there. If not, turn the motor 1/16 of a turn till the next screw line is parallel with the border.

Good luck
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 11:43 pm:

Oh, by the way, I do not use the magneto post to flash the magneto. I take the post out and use a nail to make contact with the coil ring terminal.
Don't ask why but ... .


Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 01:06 am:

Andre V's suggestions are excellent! Especially the not using the mag post for the connection. While often done with no harm or damage, the current capability of 36 volts of automotive batteries is much greater than what the magneto can put out with the engine running. The magneto post is not intended to carry that much current (it is the amperage, not the voltage at issue here), and being the weakest link, it could be the mag post that could most likely fail.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 01:29 am:

Eric - Not sure if this matters, but everything I have ever read about this process seems to have used a compass with a needle. Yours has a disc rather than a needle. I'm wondering if that makes any difference,....??? Just an "observation",....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 03:01 am:

Eric, Search or Goggle "Tom Carnegie MTFCA charging magneto magnets" and you'll find a really great instruction on recharging in the car without the need for a compass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 03:10 am:

Here's a link for you

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/528397.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 06:58 am:

Tom has some really good points!

There was one other issue with my last magnet charge session surfaced.

This was done by laying a coil ring on the flywheel magnets.

Prior to the charge, I measured the strength and polarity of each magnet.

One magnet was found to be reversed and was considered for a change out, but time was limited.

The strength and polarity of each magnet was measured again, after the charge zaps, and the reversed magnet had flipped back to the proper polarity.

The flywheel will not be installed for some time yet and the measurements were recorded and will be done again to see if that one wrong magnet can flip back. If nothing else, it would reduce the Magneto output.

The second flywheel could not be properly charged to produce equal readings on both poles.

All north poles measured an average of 30 Gauss and all south poles measured an average close to 300 Gauss. The charge procedure was repeated 3 times with the same results, and it will be later done again with a individual magnet charger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By samuel pine on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 07:39 am:

Confused again? Ok compass is X & Y inches
from the mag post but what if your compass has
a smaller or larger diameter won't that throw
those measurements off?? OR are measurements
taken from the center point of the needle which
makes some sense. Just curious although I dare
not my luck I'd ruin the thing....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dunlap - Orlando, Florida on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 09:09 am:

Samuel: The measurements are from center point of the needle and center point of the mag post. That is what Iíve come to conclude from reviewing many forum discussions. Unfortunately, the drawings rarely depict that with clarity/accuracy.

Harold: I wondered about the disc compass vs. the needle compass. I have convinced myself that a compass is a compass and it shouldnít matter, but I am not any sort of expert on such matters. I plan to swing by the store today and grab a needle compass and see if there is any discernible difference.

Gene: Thanks for the link to Tom Carnegieís recharging method without using a compass. If I cannot find a way to get the compass to properly align with N/S, I may have no other choice but to align the screws (similar to what Andre referenced above) and give it a try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 09:41 am:

Murray Fahnestock's drawing gives different measurements, and measures from the needle pivot.





See pages 235-240 for the full article.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 10:07 am:

Steve, you probably posted this a few years ago.

I saved and misplaced it, but found it today.

I do not have a reference to the book it was published in, but I do like the text below that photo.

I had my first T for 10 years, before I learned about coil problems and got it running well.

Theory


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 10:35 am:

These drawings are from The Model T Ford Owner by Murray Fahnestock. The article was originally published in the February 1924 issue of The Ford Owner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 10:46 am:

Thanks Steve!

Here is a better copy of the fine print.

The misfiring allows the unburned gasses to pass from the exhaust pipe into the muffler.

There these unburned gasses collect and are ignited by succeeding charges from the cylinders.

The misfiring at high speeds also causes slight hesitations in the pull of the engine. But the fly wheel effect smooths those over at high speed so that they are hardly noticeable.

It might be thought that a weak magneto would be most evident at slow engine speeds. As then the magneto does not generate as high a voltage as at higher speeds. But the reason that the ignition fails at higher speeds is due to the fact that at high speed, the alternating current from the Ford magneto is of much higher frequency, and so is chocked back to a much greater extent by the primary windings of the Ford coil units. This same effect is relied on to keep the current flowing through the Ford coil units about the same, irrespective of the speed of the engine.

Instead of using the current from a battery for comparison in checking up the current supplied by the magneto, we can use the current supplied by the magneto of another car to furnish current to the ignition system. This is done by grounding the two cars together, that is, connecting a wire from a running board or chassis frame of one car to the running board of the other car.

A wire is then connected from the magneto of the car that is running good to the coil box of the car that is being tested, to determine if the magneto of the car being tested is at fault. Be careful not to send the current from the magneto of one Ford through the windings of the magneto of the other Ford.

At Ford agencies, it is customary to test Ford magnetos on the ammeter of the coil unit tester. If the ammeter indicates .8 or more, the Ford magneto is sufficiently strong.

An alternating current volt meter can also be used to test the strength of the Ford magneto. On new or overhauled engines, where a well fitted rear main bearing cap eliminates end-play, a voltage of 25 to 30 may be shown at high speeds. However, as long as the Ford magneto indicates from 15 to 18 volts at moderate speeds, it may be assumed to be in fairly good condition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 11:39 am:

This is timely info. I killed my magneto by reading the compass wrong. Andre's info is going to be big help as I am not going to pull the hogshead unless can't get recharged. We have a KRW recharge unit at the shop with the gauge for setting the N/S poles, I am going to try that first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 12:55 pm:

Mark, Did you read Tom Carnegie's post that I provided a link to above?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Addington on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 01:07 pm:

I have used Tom Carnagie's method and it works very well. I used a welder and put a piece of rubber hose around a 3/8" bolt to insulate it from grounding on the hogs head, then inserted it down through the hole for the mag post. Flashed the ground clamp to the frame three times. That took my mag from not being able to run on mag at all to being able to start it on mag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 07:25 pm:

Steve, What settings did you use on the welder? Great idea about the rubber hose!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 09:31 pm:

Thank you Gene, just did. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 09:33 pm:

I used to have directions posted on line, can't find them just now. I have had wonderful luck with doing this using my DC arc welder. I use the normal mag post but put a copper wire onto the mag post(10-14 ga... whatever I have on the bench). I put another copper wire into the electrode cable. The other cable to ground on the block (negative). Then I set the welder to full (about 210 amps) and then just flash the two copper wires together. I just hit one against the other whilst looking away. The copper wires arc so when you do this look away or wear eye protection. All the sparks are at the copper wires which I terminate at least 4 feet from the car!

This way there is no fighting 3 batteries to hook them together. This method works really well every time I have tried it (maybe 15 or 20 times now). Some folks suggest precautions such as doing it outside, or use a fan to keep fumes away, etc. I think that if you treat this like welding you will be ok.

A few months ago I had my mag die so I charged it back up and it died again. I kept recharging it as I chased down the short to the worn out switch. Once I rebuilt the ignition switch and charged it up once more I was done. Now months later it is still going strong. I have had this method keep a mag strong for over ten years use.

IMHO, TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 12:22 am:

Test


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Addington on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 09:33 am:

Gene I used a 250 amp welder and set it at about 80%. If you are going to use this method be sure to line the magnet pins up correctly.You should be able to see them with the cover removed. A line between the two on top needs to be parallel with the floor. If you have access to a welder it is a lot less hassle than dealing with several batteries and the "zap" will be considerably more powerful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Hand on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 11:53 am:

Terry, You indicated your problem was caused by a worn out ignition switch. Did you find that the switch back feed battery voltage to the magneto coil causing the magnets to loose magnetism?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 08:09 pm:

George,

I thought I answered this but I now see I failed to post it. Yes, I have had switch failures in two cars. My 1913 Fire Brigade car had a nut in the switch come loose while driving on mag and short to battery. The car started coughing and then died. I quickly switched to battery and kept on driving to the next tour stop. I had to wait the weekend to get home and recharge the mag, but I fixed the switch right away.

The other was on my '27 pickup. The switch wore down and shorted out. The car stopped whilst being driven on mag the same way as on the '13. It died however, so I had to restart on battery. Again home to recharge the magnets.

Here is a link to the discussion of the failed reproduction switch.

The first time your mag is totally dead you get a sinking feeling thinking that you will have to pull the engine out to fix it. But then you fix the switch and see that it only takes a few minutes to recharge the mag as good as new... no engine removal needed!

IMHO,TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dunlap - Orlando, Florida on Friday, March 30, 2018 - 09:08 am:

I have a question about the Carnegie method referenced above. The compass method indicates that the recharging/flashing should be done, then crank a 1/4 turn, flash, and repeat until it has been done at each of the 1/4ís. It isnít clear from the Carnegie instructions if it is necessary to repeat the flashing at each of the quarter points, or if it is adequate to do it once (multiple flashings at that first point).

Can someone clarify whether the Carnegie method requires flashing at each of the 1/4 points?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Friday, March 30, 2018 - 09:23 am:

Erik,

I think, but who am I (I can't walk on water), the reason for the 1/4 turn has to do with the difference in space between the coils and the magnets. (Top 0.5mm bottom 0.8mm) By turning the flywheel you can make the charge even.
Honest, I never turned the flywheel, I flash it a few times and it works for me.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Addington on Friday, March 30, 2018 - 09:43 am:

It is not necessary to turn the flywheel for this to work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, March 30, 2018 - 10:46 am:

I brought the KRW gauge home last night that finds the correct point to flash the magnets. There is just enough magnetism left that I can now flash mine without pulling the hogs head or lining up the brass screws. Oh happy days! :-) I am sure the chapter in the Ford Service Manual says to turn the engine 1/4 turn(s) and reflash. I am going to follow those directions, including which +/- terminals goes where when flashing. The car ran good as it was before and should have left well enough alone, you know if it ain't broke don't mess with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, March 30, 2018 - 11:02 am:

I believe the in-car charge was covered in a service bulletin, not the manual. If it's in the book I haven't found it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, March 30, 2018 - 11:12 am:

Steve thank you for the correction. It is in the Service Bulletins.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, March 30, 2018 - 12:27 pm:

The February 1924 Ford Service Bulletin, on Page 11, does not tell you anything you wish to hear.

In Part, "If through misuse it should become necessary to remagnetize the magnets, far better results will be obtained by remagnetizing each magnet individually, rather while they are assembled on the fly wheel.

One of the principal reasons why magnets cannot be remagnetized successfully while they are assembled on the fly wheel,is that the fly wheel being made of cast iron, is naturally considered softer than the specially treated steel magnets, and the magnetism following the path of least resistance is absorbed to a large extent by the fly wheel."

An earlier bulletin identifies some special shims for closely aligning the fly wheel to an equal spacing all the way around.

That has always been my theory for turning the fly wheel 90 degrees and doing 4 zaps. If some of the magnets are closer, they will receive a higher charge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Spadafore on Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 08:22 am:

Ford later changed their thinking on in-car charging. The October 15, 1926 service bulletin gives step by step instructions on how to do it using the KRW battery charging station. I don't know if the 90į rotations do anything to further charge the magnets, but it doesn't take that much more time to do it and it can't really hurt if everything is lined up properly. All I know is that my car will now start on mag and before recharging, it ran slightly worse than on 6v.

The biggest hurdle for me was just getting up the nerve to do it for fear of messing something up. Once I came to realize that my car barely ran on mag as it was, I really didn't have anything to lose. The other thing that didn't help was the diagrams can be confusing. It doesn't matter which way the compass needle is pointing when you line up the flywheel. What matters is the polarity of your charge. When you take the readings to the left of the pickup: if your needle points south, you flash (-) to the pickup. If your needle points north you flash (+) to the pickup. If you take your readings on the right side of the pickup, you reverse these. FWIW, I used three fairly heavy duty 12v batteries and two sets of 4 GA booster cables.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 02:00 pm:

Eric,

I read through Tom Carneggieís posts on the linked thread. I recommend all of the folks reading this thread also read Tomís.

Tom does not recommend turning the flywheel whilst charging. It has been recommended to turn the flywheel 1/4 turn four times (90į) so that if due to gravity, uneven mounting or flexing of the field there are variable gaps.

Tom says he is saturating the magnet charge with 80A from his welder and saturated is the best you can do.

I charge mine and redo it turning the flywheel 45į. So I hit it in 8 positions trying to eliminate any weakness from gap variation. Necessary to do it that way? NO! It only takes a few minutes to do that once you are set up and it is free, so why not? If you are really compulsive you can turn it 22.5į and reverse current polarity so you can zap it 16 times... too much bother in my opinion and too likely to mess up.

What I donít understand is why Tom throws the lever forward when charging. If you pull the lever back half way to neutral it is easy to turn the flywheel to position with the hand crank. Also, the pressure on the clutch finger levers will push the transmission/crankshaft assembly forwards taking up wear and play in the bearings making the magnet-field gap the minimum for best charging. I am guessing that lever position doesn't matter as the magnetic field created when flashing the mag slams the crankshaft forward pretty hard anyway.

IMHO, TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 04:25 pm:

Terry,

I think the idea of shifting to High Gear is to let the clutch spring reduce the gap between the magnets and the ring coils.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, April 03, 2018 - 09:53 am:

Mark, your K.R.W. charger must be rare, I have never seen or heard of one. I do wonder if that stands for K. R. Wilson.

Steve, you were right and wrong about the service bulletin that describes charging the magneto in the car.

The bulletin for October 15, 1926 Volume 7, Number 11 describes the magnet charger and comes right after Number 10 that describes the use of that K.R.W. charger.

This is what is described in the summary on the last page.

After charging in one position, the engine should be turned one quarter of a turn and the magnets again charged, repeating the operation until the magnets have been charged four times, once at each quarter turn.

Charging in one position will give the magneto about 90% full strength but the magnets are charge unevenly. A more lasting charge will therefore be given if the magnets are charged on each quarter.

There is no reason given for the need to repeat the test at 4 quarter turn intervals. I still suspect it covers the situation where all the magnets are possibly not evenly spaced with the coil ring poles.

That situation would produce less than the stated 90% charge and could provide a 100% charge if all the spacing was exact.

While the input power can be calculated to some extent, the step down voltage and current used to charge the magnets cannot be accurately determined to simulate a modern home built unit.

Then it is also not known if the device is a half wave or full wave rectifier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dunlap - Orlando, Florida on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 03:58 pm:

I just wanted to give everyone an update on the in-car recharge.

I decided to give it a go after we used Ron Pattersonís tester and determined the magneto was not working at proper strength. I tried and tried to get the compass method to work, but for some inexplicable reason, the compass never pointed toward the engine. I abandoned that option and decided to use the method first referenced by Andre above and Tom Carnegieís method referenced above and set forth in detail at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/528397.html

It worked. I followed Tomís instructions and the magneto is working much better. I do not know if it is fully charged or rehabilitated, but it is unquestionably running better and does not shut off when I reduce the throttle.

Thanks to everyone for the input. It took a while for me to muster up the courage to try this method, but it worked out fine in the long run.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, April 19, 2018 - 10:33 am:

Mark, your K.R.W. charger must be rare, I have never seen or heard of one. I do wonder if that stands for K. R. Wilson, Yes. It is shown in the service bulletin's. Maybe not rare, but uncommon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Bourgeois on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 03:20 pm:

I have read this thread several times trying to process all the information.

I think I understand.

Once the magnets/brass spaces, are align with the coils.
Complete the circuit with the batteries, the negative at the magneto contact and the positive to the block.

Now the electricity will flow and around all the coils.
Complete the circuit 7 or 8 times.
So far so good.

This is where I want to make sure I understand.

Do I need to rotate the fly wheel to align the next set of spools?
Or
All the magnets are now charged because the each end of the magnet is over a coil?

I try to boil thing down to the simplest form, for my simple mind.

I do have a car to try this with. I just want to make sure I don't blow something up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Bourgeois on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 03:23 pm:

I have read this thread several times trying to process all the information.

I think I understand.

Once the magnets/brass spaces, are align with the coils.
Complete the circuit with the batteries, the negative at the magneto contact and the positive to the block.

Now the electricity will flow and around all the coils.
Complete the circuit 7 or 8 times.
So far so good.

This is where I want to make sure I understand.

Do I need to rotate the fly wheel to align the next set of spools?
Or
All the magnets are now charged because the each end of the magnet is over a coil?

I try to boil thing down to the simplest form, for my simple mind.

I do have a car to try this with. I just want to make sure I don't blow something up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 03:38 am:

Steve no need to turn the engine over. Just flash it a few times but The - connection go the frame (ground), the + connection to the magneto terminal.

Andre
Belgium


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