Early Patent Plate

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Early Patent Plate
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Tuesday, April 10, 2018 - 12:22 pm:

Needing research help from early T guys here: The mid and later 1909 Touring used the earlier rectangular Ford serial number plate #T-18652. Was there also a square multiple patent numbers plate used, and if so, any idea what the serial number range of this usage was?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 - 04:07 am:

Scott,

I'm not sure about the #T-18652. I did a search in Bruce's Price List of Parts, but I did not find that one listed. But maybe I did the search wrong?

At any rate, Gail Rodda's excellent book "Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide" Vol 2 (available from Lang's at: https://www.modeltford.com/item/PART-G2.aspx ) on page 24 had the following information:

The first 2500 Ts used the same Plate the Model N,R,S, & SR Fords used. (Lang's part number 1865-6-8 ) shown below from their site at:



From car # 2,500 to late 1909 the same Plate above was used with a separate patent plate attached just below it. That is shown from car # 3182 see posting
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/151006.html?1279155555



And then from late 1909 to 1911 Ford combined the two above tags into a single tag that had the patent numbers as well as a place for the car number (which agreed with the serial number for USA cars until Oct 6, 1911 ref page 551 of Bruce McCalley "Model T Ford"). That plate is shown in Langs part number 1865A at: https://www.modeltford.com/item/1865A.aspx and is shown below:



On page 5 of the Jan - Feb 1974 "Model T Times" Cecil Church had purchased a very original 1910 serial number 23,805 that had that ID tag still on the car.

That style is also shown at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/138085.html?1272498300 on an Apr 1910 original touring.

I have a photo of a restored touring 13,936 (Dec 1909) that has that same style patent plate. But I do not personally know if that was or was not the original plate or style of plate when the car was new.



But from the site at: http://findclassicars.com/ford/33762-1909-ford-model-t-base-29l.html it describes the car as "Former Harrah’s Car re-restored in 2007 and reliably toured since then." From what I remember of Harrah's restored cars, he usually had a very original car to begin with and he tried very hard to make it as close as possible to the way it was originally built. Two exceptions I can think of to that were the around the world Thomas Flyer which was put back in the condition it was in during the race. And his first car he restored. He left it as an example of the importance of doing research before restoring a car.

Note in this case, the car was re-restored and again I do not personally know if the plate was replaced or not.

Hopefully someone else can add some data points to when the late 1909-1911 style came into use or perhaps can let us know if number 13,936 was the original plate or not.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 - 09:23 am:

Many Thanks Hap...the Red Touring shows the tag that I am needing to either locate, or possibly create. I am restoring #35XX where this tag is missing. I have checked the various catalog tag information, but so far, have not seen this style of tag offered. Does anyone know of a source for this as a repro part, or can someone provide a crisp photograph or even the width and height dimensions?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 - 11:26 am:

I couldn't find any early Patton plates only an early Patton mug! :-)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 - 12:19 pm:

Denny, do you count the Cheerios in that to get your cereal number?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 - 12:32 pm:

Well... yes I do, But the hardest cereal to prepare in the morning is the Shredded Wheat...it takes me most of the morning to unweave those little buggers!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 - 01:40 pm:

Denny -- I think we owe a lot to that Patton for helping to end WWII in Europe earlier rather than later.


Scott,

I'm not aware of anyone reproducing that Patent Plate.

Gail Rodda's excellent book "Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide" Vol 2 indicates that it was used after the first 2500 cars (of course that isn't a really firm date as the first water pump engine car was # 2448 Manufactured Apr 22, 1909 while several 26xxx numbered cars were manufactured Apr 22 to Apr 27, 1909 -- ref pages 480-481 Bruce McCalley "Model T Ford.") But a 35xx serial number would have most likely been manufactured around May 20 to May 25, 1909 time frame.

Of course you do not need to estimate when it was manufactured, as you can order a copy of the build/shipping record from the Benson Ford Archives and know exactly which date it was assembled.

Are you working with the original body and engine and if so are there any signs from the original body where the ID tag or tags were attached? And if so did it clearly show both tags?

While I believe that number is too early to have had the late 1909 to 1911 style tag, I wonder if it might have only had the early style 1906-first 2500 T's style? For sure there would have been a time frame when some cars were manufactured with only the 1906-first 2500 T style and some were manufactured with both the earlier tag with the engine number and the rectangular patent only tag. Was that one day of over lap or one month? I don't know.

In this case we have the sample above of #3182 has both tags. When was it manufactured? I don't know. But 3187, 3200, were manufactured on May 17, 1909. #3500 was manufactured on May 22, 1909 so only 7 days and that is counting both May 17 and May 22.

I would recommend that you start another thread to address what is the last serial number and hopefully one with a shipping record with the single ID Plate and what is the first one with the two plates.

Note -- in the MTFCI Judging Guidelines vol 7, I did not see the ID patent plates addressed. If I missed that would someone please let us know.

If you are going for a Stynoski award, I would recommend you find the drawing for that "Patent Only" plate at the Benson Ford Archives. If you know the part number or factory number that should increase your odds of finding it. That drawing -- if it is available -- the drawing would have some great details on what it should look like size wise etc.

Note the photo in Gail's vol 2 of that "Patent Only" plate is not as clear / is more of an angle than the one posted above on car # 3182 and reposted below:



If anyone has the two plates shown below, would they please put a ruler next to them and take a couple of photos?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Wednesday, April 11, 2018 - 06:38 pm:

Hello Hap:
The 35XX car is the original body, and the original T shaped plate is tired but is there. Tack holes from the lower plate and witness lines are there, so little question it had both plates. Good friend Jim is building #69XX, and this car also has the original T shaped plate, where the lower plate is missing. This car also has the tack holes and evidence that the plate was there.

A member here believes he has one of these plates and is sending it to me to inspect and record the dimensions. If accurate, I'll take the plate to a photo etching expert I know to get a quote on reproducing this, and will reference one of the later plates to match brass gloss, Black background etc. I'll report back with what I come up with. Many thanks again for the help and great feedback.
Regards,
Scott


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