Brake Chattering

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Brake Chattering
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 05:42 pm:

Iíve read previous posts on this but wondering if there is something new to add. I rebuilt the rear and drive shaft ... and had the engine and transmission rebuilt with new bushings. Drums balanced. And I a ďkindĒ driver when it comes to braking. Lately had some chattering in the last two feet before a complete stop. A familiar story. I can push hard just before and let up to coast to a soft stop but am wondering why itís doing it.

Have kevlar and installed it on good round bands. Tried tightening the brake band nut one turn. Didnít see a difference and went back and loosened it because I didn't want it to drag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 07:13 pm:

Mark, my 1912 van has done this for some 20000 miles, much of which is in city traffic doing promotion work. I have learned to drive around it, as you indicate. Hit the pedal harder at the start of braking and ease up towards the end. The occasional heavy stop will mean holding the brake down for the whole stop, but the chattering is more audible than it is 'feelable' at the pedal.

All in all, the technique is probably better on the brakes than a more gentle but constant pressure.

Just how I see it.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 08:13 pm:

Thanks Allan. Yes, Iím drifting into 900 miles on this car and I live and drive in a city. Lots of farmland around Rochester but I drive in city traffic to work nearly every day. Guess Iíll keep breaking the way Iím doing ... just that once in awhile I do have to come to a quick stop and it chatters about four times shaking the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 08:25 pm:

Mark

Sometimes it's just drive line movement, prior to the rear end delivering the stoppage to the rear wheels. Might be U-joint slop, or more often the ball joint at the 4th main.

A quick check is to pull the floorboards and look for movement back and forth of the rear of the ball joint at the drive shaft when pulling up on the emergency brake/clutch lever when in high gear.

Any movement there will produce a bit of intermittent 'shakes' when applying the transmission brake. Those go away when the driveline settles into the stop phase.

Shims are made to help take up that movement, being placed inside the ball joint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 08:41 pm:

Kevlar causes band chatter. Been thru all that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 08:55 pm:

Wood linings cause chatter too :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 09:02 pm:

Some people recommend a cup of ATF added to the oil. It worked well with my Kavs. When I converted to synthetic motorcycle oil it also went away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 09:10 pm:

Try putting in neutral a few feet before you come to a stop. If it still chatters, the problem could be in the brake. Sometimes if the engine is running a bit rough, it will tend to chatter. The slower and smoother you can get the engine to run, the smoother it will stop.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 09:51 pm:

Norm - In re-reading Marks post, he says, ".....some chattering in the last two feet before a complete stop."

During that "last two feet before a complete stop", the engine is completely disconnected from the driveline, and I don't think the transmission brake cares how the engine is running at all,...fast, slow, smooth or rough. FWIW,.....harold (:^)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 10:02 pm:

Mark - Here's what I'd try,.....whenever possible, try letting completely up on the brake pedal momentarily (like take your foot completely off of the brake pedal for a second) just before that last two feet before the chattering starts. That will allow the brake band to loosen enough to get more oil between the band lining and the surface of the drum.

I realize that not all stops can be made in such a way as to allow time to do this, but quite often, you can plan your complete stops in such a way as to "bathe" your brake band in oil this way, just before coming to a complete (hopefully "chatterless") stop,....again,....FWIW,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 10:09 pm:

This is a bit of an "aside" here, but Murray Fahnestock, who probably knew more than anybody else about Model T Fords besides ol' Henry himself, strongly recommended "pumping" the brake to allow oil to continually flow in between band lining and drum, and to never (if possible) to hold the brake pedal down for more than two seconds as a time! His theory was that each time you do this, besides whatever other benefit of the additional oil, it would have a cooling effect each time you "pump" the brake in this manner.

By the way, this is in Murray's book, which is well worth reading for sure,........harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 11:06 pm:

If Kevlar causes it, why don't I have brake chatter?


Maybe you need this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 11:37 pm:

Harold ... yup, I should have been more descriptive in saying how I use the brakes. I allow the car to slow down by engine compression and as I approach the stop I depress the brake pedal ... and then let up to allow oil between the bands and the drum. I depress and release until the car is stopped and of course the clutch pedal is pushed to neutral by this time.

I had kevlar on my last T and didnít have this problem. It was a much lighter car and maybe that has something to do with it. Also, it has just warmed up here in Rochester and I am running thinner 5 w 30 oil for winter. Wonder if an oil change with a higher viscosity oil is the trick or adding ATF.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 - 11:58 pm:

Mark, lots of people here use 5w 30 year round, so i doubt that is the problem. Have you pulled the trans cover off just to take a quick look to see if anything looks amiss? I would start there before adding anything to the oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 06:58 am:

Yes, I had tightened the brake band one turn to see if that would help ... then went back in and turned it back because I didnít want the band to drag. Everything looked normal ... drums look good ... linings intact.

Was thinking that some people in past posts suggested adding ATF and George mentioned synthetic motorcycle oil in this thread. It may have to do with all the stop and go driving I do living in a city.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 09:11 am:

My '14 does the same thing but after I put AC brakes on and set them up to engage first the chatter went away even when hard braking which engages the transmission brake. Oddly, it did not chatter before I redid the transmission and all the bushings were well worn. New U joint and tight ball cap so I really don't know where the chatter is coming from. I run Kevlar bands in all of my cars and this is the only one that chatters.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 12:50 pm:

My '23 developed a bit of chatter over about 3 years of running. Chatter happening when braking at very low speed, similar to Mark's description.

I ran tested at speed, depressing and throwing out the low pedal hard. Simulates fast clutch engagement and was way to 'feel' loose clutch. (Don't have steep hills around me to do a proper clutch test). Noted some slippage as speed didn't catch up fast.

So turned in the three clutch finger screws and tightened up the clutch pack.

The bit of brake chatter at the last couple of feet on stopping went away.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 01:29 pm:

LOL .. I had to google what an AC brake was. Donít want to add on anything .. just want to subdue the chatter. I can reduce the chances by careful foot work, but was curious why I was getting it now and didnít seem to have it before now that everything is broken in. I didnít have it for the first few hundred miles. Iíll play with the clutch fingers and add some ATF this weekend and see what I get.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 01:57 pm:

Mark

If it is band related chatter then sometimes that is loose band. Happens to reverse at times as the reverse band is rarely adjusted by most drivers.

My clutch related chatter should be most commonly called shutter. A bit different in cause. Shutter can be transmission parts worn like gears or drive line all the way back to the ring and pinion.

Band chatter can be worn lining, glazed lining if coated type or poorly shaped bands without good contact all the way around the drum or lack of complete engagement from pedal cam wear too.

Might re-check your band tightness as loose band will make chatter on the drum from lack of full clamping pressure.

Some over fear tight brake band but erring on loose side can cause this type of band chatter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 06:08 pm:

Hey Dan, The drive train is fine and the transmission all rebuilt and balanced. Canít imagine the band lining is glazed with so little use and me being a knowledgeable T driver. When I step on the pedal and push all the way I still have a couple of inches before I hit the floorboards when itís completely tight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 07:57 pm:

If it only does it the last 2 feet of the stop just stop 2 feet sooner and it shouldn't chatter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - 08:05 pm:

Good idea ... what a simple solution !


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