Canadian built 1909 Model T touring is having a birthday.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Canadian built 1909 Model T touring is having a birthday.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 09:58 pm:

Our 1909 Walkerville built Model T touring is having its 109 birthday on or about May 24.The car is number 4032,the last number used for May 1909 is 4036.The car was sold new in Ingersoll,Ontario.That's 10 miles west of my home.In about 1952 the car moved to the Woodstock area with the owner keeping it for 62 years,before passing away.My son & I purchased the car in 2014.This car has lived in a 10 mile radius from our home since it was sold new.The car has been driven coast to coast in Canada twice,by the previous owner.The furthest we have driven it is when we drove it around Lake Erie & that was about 700 miles.If only the T could talk,it would have some interesting tales to tell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan Long Western Australia on Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 10:33 pm:

Scott
Would love to see a photo or two!
Alan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ross Harris on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 05:32 pm:

Hey Scott Let's take the 1909 out for it's Birthday I'll buy the ice cream. Ross


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 06:55 pm:

Ross,we might have to bring the ice cream to the car.I wonder if T's like chocolate cake ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 08:57 pm:

Scott,

Happy T-birthday!

There is always more to learn about our Ts. Question, if you don't mind, would you please share the source you are using that the last number in May 1909 was number 4036 as well as your date of May 24, 1909 for car # 4032?

Neither number is listed in Bruce McCalley's
partial repeat partial listing of serial numbers in his book "Model T Ford" on page 482. But after about 3,800 he was listing approximately every 100th car or engine unless there was something he wanted to highlight about that serial number. Both serial numbers are most likely available on the Benson Ford Archives shipping documents. [For new readers they cover most of the serial numbers 1119 to 70,750 which was an engine only to Canada on Oct 5, 1911 (ref page 499 McCalley). To order one in that range please see: . See: http://www.thehenryford.org/research/productionRecords.aspx the cost was approximately $35 on in Mar 2018.)

Note the US engine & transmission assemblies were sent complete from Detroit across the river to a customs impoundment area that belonged to Ford of Canada. Customs did not have to be paid until the parts were removed from there (at least that is the information I have so far). So if your May 24, 1909 date is from the US shipping documents also called Ford Vehicle Production Records -- it is likely that it would have been a couple of days before it was assembled into a car. And if you have a Canadian source -- we would love to document what it is and where it is located. I know there are some records in the Ford Collection at the University of Windsor for the earlier Fords. That information has been collected and is published in "Pate's Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia" but does not go past 1907 or so. But I think the actual data may go further. If anyone lives near there and could check that out for us, please let us know and we will send you additional details on where to begin looking.

And yes, photos of your car would be greatly appreciated. 1909 Fords are not often seen and 1909 Fords assembled in Canada are seen even less often.

Again Happy-T-birthday!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 09:00 pm:

I would come over to your house but only if Ross is actually bringing the ice cream :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 09:02 pm:

and cake.....:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 06:13 pm:

Hi Hap,
I got the Serial Numbers from the MTFCA web site.It shows when the car was sold (not built),which looks like late May of 1909.The May 24 date was an estimate by me.The Serial Numbers list says that the engines where usually used within a few days ? I will have my son post some pictures of the car soon.
Yours in vintage motoring,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 07:40 pm:

Happy 109 Birthday Walkerville Model T!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 08:44 pm:

Scott,

Thank you for sharing where you got the information on engine serial number and the last serial number that was sold that month. You shared it was the MTFCA site. Checking there I found the numbers I believe you used at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm .

Like many things with Model Ts sometimes the questions lead to answers that bring completion to our search and sometimes a whole new path to explore is discovered.

Again, thank you so much for sharing where you obtained your numbers. Happy Birthday to you and your T.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 09:15 pm:

You can see not only Scott's 1909 T in these photos, but also his 1913 T, and my '15, and Ross's 1920 Coupe, Peter Fawcett's 1917 Pierce Arrow, Jeff Campbell's 1913 White, Bert Vanderwal's 1914, and Bob Nix's 1955 Ford :-) and of course, both my Queens :-) By the way, Scott is the fellow in the suspenders! :-)

Sorry to hijack thread but Scott is one of my closest friends, I love to tease him, and photos of his cars are just too nice not to share! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 01:57 am:

Darren,Thanks for sharing the pictures.Did Ross show up at your place with the ice cream ? The picture of my 1909 T shows Tom Stewart at the wheel.Tom had owned my car for 62 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 08:02 am:

Hello Scott:
Happy 109th, the car looks great. Are there mechanical changes to the car, particularly, does it have the original drive train...looks like later large brake drums? Also curious who the windshield, lamps, and running board generator are made by? I assume you have the Ford Build Sheet, and curious whether this document shows unique item(s)....mine was sold with a jack for instance. I previously posted comments about the serial and patent plates...does this car have these original tags?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 01:00 pm:

Hi Scott,The 1909 has the original drive train.The car does have a starter on it.The previous owner installed it because he had heart problems & his doctor told him,no more cranking the "T". He really liked to drive this car & I can see why he added the starter. The large drums are rocky mountain brakes.The windshield,parking lights,head lights & carbide generator are all made by Chadwich Bros. of Hamilton,Ontario,Canada.I am missing the Chadwich tail light,if anyone knows of one for sale.I don't have the build sheet.My car has the serial plate only.The serial plate says Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited ,Engine No. 4032,Walkerville,Ontario.Walkerville is now part of Windsor.Cann't see any evidence of the patent plate being on the car,unless the holes where filled when the car was painted.
Yours in vintage motoring,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 01:33 pm:

Hello Scott. Many thanks for report. I am assuming this Touring has the no rivet rear end with longer drive shaft? Love to see photo. Chadwicks are exceptional lamps...is the generator a Chadwick also?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Friday, May 25, 2018 - 09:13 pm:

Hi Scott,I forgot to mention that the rear end is a Ruckstell.The original rear axle wasn't in the car when Tom bought it in 1952.At that time it had 1932 Ontario license plates on it.Yes the generator is a Chadwick.
Yours in vintage motoring,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, May 26, 2018 - 12:27 am:

I think it was last year some time (could have been the year before?), that a member of the Chadwick family posted on this site asking about surviving Chadwick lamps. They were also hoping to acquire some for themselves.
Apparently they are somewhat rare today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Findlay on Saturday, May 26, 2018 - 02:38 am:

Chadwick lamps are very hard to find. However I found a sidelight this year at the Bakersfield swap meet of all places. It's fairly rough and missing the font but I brought it back to Canada anyways. It needs to find a good home with somebody now!
Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Saturday, May 26, 2018 - 03:01 am:

Hi Ken,A font from a Solar light will fit the Chadwick light.What do you want for your light ?
Yours in vintage motoring,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Saturday, May 26, 2018 - 07:13 am:

Many thanks Scott. Would you happened to have a photo that shows your Chadwick generator? Ford commonly mixed and matched various makers brass parts, so its a treat to see a full matched brass set on a car.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, May 26, 2018 - 09:59 pm:

For Scott Rosenthal --

Because #4032 was assembled by Ford of Canada, the USA build sheet (also called shipping documents) would most likely only contain that engine number 4032 was shipped to Ford of Canada. So it will not have any of the details listed on the form that an USA assembled T would have had, as it was not assembled in the USA.

Some additional comments that are based on "incomplete -- repeat -- incomplete" records. Trent's Early Ford Database has approximately 22% or so of the serial numbers listed. And in the case of the Model N & R Fords we know that Ford of Canada sold Model N & R Fords that were not included in Trent's 22% of the data. And Bruce's information is a subset of the actual production cards. He listed approximately every 10th serial number and then switched to every 100th because there were so many. He added extras if he thought there was something worthwhile to document (ref page 475 of McCalley "Model T Ford").

In the early months of production sometimes complete Model Ts were shipped from Ford USA to Ford Canada located in Walkerville, Canada. Tourings # 240, 253, & 295 are listed as shipped there in Dec 1908. (Ref Trent's Early Ford Database" available on the DVD that comes with "Pate's Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia" http://dunlavy.us/carlpate/index.htm . The same database is also available on "Bruce McCalley's 2 CD set "Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia" see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/822076/844722.html . Three more complete T Tourings are listed as shipped to Walkerville in the first part of Feb 1909. And on Feb 27, 1909 it shows a chassis #1022 shipped to Walkerville. But as much as reasonably possible, Ford of Canada wanted to assemble the cars using parts that were made in Canada to avoid paying tariffs. So wheels, bodies, as well as some other items such as the lamps, windshield were sourced from Canadian manufactures.

Complete chassis were continued to be shipped to Canada. For examples see page 478 of McCalley serial number 1,335 and page 479 number 1,500 and page 480 serial number 2,250 were all listed Chassis only to Walkerville.

The first engine only that I have seen so far is listed on Page 481 and was #2,800 (May 7, 1909) with the note (to Canada). Bruce has several other "engine only" notes but does NOT list a country. Canada is the logical place most of those would have gone as England was not assembling cars until 1911 and Ford of Canada was the only other location Ford Model Ts were being assembled. The cars in the USA were shipped to the dealers etc. fully assembled. That would change later so they could ship more cars in the same freight car. But the early Ts when shipped by rail - were fully assembled.

Sorry for the rambling.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Sunday, May 27, 2018 - 01:21 pm:

No rambling going on here Hap....great reading. Thanks again.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Sunday, May 27, 2018 - 03:58 pm:

I have a question about the patent plate.Would the Canadian cars have a Detroit or Walkerville patent plate ? Thanks Hap for your wealth of knowledge & for sharing the info on the Model T's with us.
Yours in vintage motoring,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff on Monday, May 28, 2018 - 06:07 pm:

Hi Scott

Here is a picture of the data plates on the slightly later 1909 Canadian T touring in the Canadian Automotive Museum in Oshawa.

The car looks like a 1950's restoration, but the leather interior and top appear to be original. The number on the plate matches the engine block.

Drive Safe
Jeff
Nova Scotia, Canada


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Monday, May 28, 2018 - 07:18 pm:

Thanks Jeff for the info.All I have to do now is find one.
Yours in vintage motoring,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, May 28, 2018 - 09:40 pm:

For Jeff – thank you so much for posting the photo of the Canadian ID Plate for #8752 and showing the Canadian Patent plate that is attached below it. Both of those are different in wording. The ID plate with the serial number is a different shape from the USA ID plates used during that time. And the dates on the Patent plate are different from the dates on the USA Patent plate. My GUESS for why the patent dates are different is the dates for the same patent in the USA was different from when it was filed and/or approved (I’m not sure which date is used) in Canada. If someone knows which it was the filing date or the approval date, please let us know. Note I had been looking for a photo of the ID plate – but the one I have is still on the old computer and did not transfer to the new computer for some reason (probably operator error).

For Scott & Scott -- thank you for the encouragement. Sometimes I'm too guilty of telling folks how a watch can be built when they just want to know what time it is.

For Scott Kramer,

Yes, the Walkerville Fords came with a Canadian ID plate. See page 12 of chapter 6 of "Pate's Early Ford Encyclopedia" for a photograph of the Canadian Model C Name plate. It had the words:

The Ford Motor Company
of Canada Limited
Walkerville - Ontario

It did not have a place for the engine/car number and that is why it is being called a Name Plate and not an ID or Patent Plate. The Canadian Name Plate was brass and NOT the simple rectangular shape the USA company used for their Model C cars.

When Ford USA added a place for the engine serial number to the Name Plate – we start calling it an ID plate or serial number plate. Ford USA initially added that for the 1906 Model Ns and continued to use that same style plate on the 1907-1908 Model N Runabouts, 1907 Model R Runabouts, late 1907-08 Model S Runabouts, 1908 Model S Roadsters, and the early 1909 Ts.
I believe Ford of Canada likely also did a similar thing. On page 14 of Chapter 6, of Pate’s book he has a photo of the same style Canadian ID plate that is the upper plate in the photo Jeff posted. I have reposted it below for clarity.



Carl Pate shares that is the same style that was originally used on the Canadian 1906-1908 Model N cars. The photo he printed in his book is an unused/the engine number was not stamped on the plate. [

We have a photo of an early Canadian Model T serial number 15xx with the single Canadian brass ID plate and without any patent plate attached below it. A 15xx serial number would be in the Mar 1909 time frame. (And yes, the holes for a patent plate may have been filled or the heel panel may have been replaced – I do not have any additional information about the photo or car at this time.)
And then the photo Jeff posted shows #8752 with the same 1906-1909 Canadian ID Plate but now with the additional Canadian Patent Plate attached below the Canadian ID Plate.

For Scott Rosenthal – this should bring up a similar question you had. But it would be when did the Canadian ID Plate have the Patent Plate added below it and when did they switch to a single plate that had both the Patent dates and the engine serial number. At the postings: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/822076/867747.html and http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/822076/855775.html?1523486282 you discussed when did the USA cars change.

Note Gail Rodda on page 24 of his “Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide vol 2” indicates that after the first 2500 T, the USA Ford plant continued to use the same 1906-1909 ID plate and below it attached a rectangular “Patent Plate.” “IF” (and we do not know they did or did not) Ford of Canada used a similar time frame then Canadian engine #15xx would have only had the ID plate and engine # 4032 would have likely had the 2 plates as did #8752 an Aug 1909 engine (ref page 484 McCalley “Model T Ford”) but it would have been assembled in Canada so it could have been later.

Gail states the two plates continued on USA cars until late 1909 when they replaced both of those plates with a single ID Plate that had both the engine number and patent numbers.

Still lots more to document on the Ts especially the Canadian Ts.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff on Tuesday, May 29, 2018 - 06:13 pm:

Hi Hap

You may find this picture of interest then. Here is the Canadian number/patent plate from a spring 1910 Canadian T that I was able to look at last winter.

Based on the patents dates on the plate they may not have changed to this single number/patent plant in Canada until late September or October of 1909.

I think if someone looked close at the 1909 patent plate its likely the same one as the last NRS series. Perhaps they used the left over plates.

Hap, we share an interest in collecting documentation for the Canadian Ts. I think we will need to start a correspondence in the future.

Drive Safe
Jeff
Nova Scotia, Canada


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, May 29, 2018 - 09:13 pm:

Jeff,

Thank you so much for posting the photo.

Yes, I would very much like to work with you and others to better document the Canadian Ts (or T's in general. "I've never met a T I didn't like...).

To my knowledge the Canadian N & R cars did "NOT" have any patent plate. Only the single rectangular ID plate. I.e. only the top plate from your photo -- the one with the engine number. That is also what the USA N, R, S, & SR cars did -- only and ID plate with the Ford info and the serial number although the USA version.

The Early USA Ts only had the ID plate -- carried over from the N,R,S & SR cars. Again ref: Gail Rodda, "Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide Vol 2" page 24. The US Patent plate was not added to it until after the first 2500 cars (ref Vol 2 page 24). Based on a very very small data set (that would be 1) I believe the early Canadian Ts only had the ID plate the N & R cars used and did not add the Patent Plate until later.

Note also that I believe the photo you posted of the 1910 ID/Patent Plate above shows how the plates were attached originally. Brads/nails were used and not screws (extrapolated from a comment on page 12 of Chapter 6 of Carl Pate's book -- where he was commenting on how to spot reproduction Ford Name Plates on the A & A/C Fords which as far as Carl understands, did not come with a name plate.)

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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