Riveting wood band liners - a photo thread

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Riveting wood band liners - a photo thread
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 12:09 am:

As before in my trailering thread this one will have lots of photos which may load slowly. I have made them fairly small to speed the loading.

This thread will show you how I do my bands. This is not how Jim Guinn suggests doing his liners... it is better!

Note: This is how I do wooden liners... not cotton, Kevlar, cork, composite, leather or any other type.

Your first step is to throw away the Guinn directions and especially his rivets.

1Here we see a used lining which has been removed from the band next to the new lining which will replace it.
2Next I make my bands round using an old broken reverse drum... a piece of 8" pipe should work for this.
3I fasten the band snuggly around the liner on the mandrel using a piece of all thread with washers and nuts on the ends.
4Now drill the holes into the wood, all of them except the two end holes which are obstructed by the all thread.
5This is the tool I made to countersink the holes. It is made of steel rod and has a drill stop on it for setting the depth. You need not harden the steel
6Here I am counter sinking the holes. This is done on the INSIDE of the band. I just raise the band up onto the turning countersink tool.
7This is what a countersunk hole looks like.
8Now grab your rivets... this is what I recommend. They are aluminum pop rivets so when your wood wears out the aluminum will contact the drum. The aluminum is softer than the drum surface so it does not damage the drums like the steel rivets often used on Kevlar or cotton linings.
9Here I am setting the rivets... nothing special about this.
10You can see the little ball end of the rivet in there after it is set. You can leave it there and no harm will be done. I just do not fancy having them fall out and run around the inside of the engine so I remove them.
I use the broken off shaft of the rivet to push the ball out.
11This is how it looks with the little ball pushed out.
12You can stop here with the rivet standing proud of the band and it will probably be ok. I prefer to peen them flat so the band is easier to install if you are installing through the transmission door (yes you can do that with wooden bands, don't even think of it with Kevlar).
13Now that the liner is riveted to the band you can go back and drill and countersink the end holes.
14Here the end hole is ready for it's rivet.
15The ends will need to be trimmed
16I use any kind of saw... hand saw, hack saw, here I am using a band saw.
17The disc sander is handy to bevel the cut end. You can use a wood rasp or a bastard file.
18I set my rivets with a bucking bar in the vice and a center punch.
19Here's how it look s after setting.
20... and inside. Make sure you leave the rivet set as deeply as you can... but don't go gonzo with the hammer and crack the lining. Beginners often crack a liner and ruin it!
22Next I peen over the rivet... with my ball peen hammer!
23Done. It took 30 minutes because I had to stop to take photos. Your first one will take you longer. Once you get up to speed figure at least 10 minutes to do the job! I've been driving wooden bands in my daily driver for about 20 years now so I have lots of practice on this.


I've done all the trial and error in this job for you. Now you just have to do it to have the best bands available for a T.

IMHO, TH


(Message edited by thorlick on May 23, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 01:39 am:

Great seminar!!! Thanks Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 06:31 am:

Wonderful seminar Terry. I need to learn how to download photos from my smartphone, so I can use my laptop to do such presentations. I find the keyboard on my phone rather limiting, and difficult to edit.

With tongue in cheek, I note you have had plenty of practice on your daily driver. Had you been using Kevlar, you would not have the benefit of lots of practice. The only time I have ever replaced Kevlar bands on any of my T's was at overhaul time when the motor was out, and then, only because it was the easiest time to do it. I have quite a collection of kevlar lined bands hanging on the wall, too good to throw out.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Govoni Fredericksburg, VA on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 09:02 am:

Question. Why did you use a regular rivet for the last two holes? You used pop rivets for the other ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 09:10 am:

Alan, I transfer them to the desktop machine two ways:

1. Via the USB with my charging cord ( I've done this from an Android and an I-phone to a PC).

2. I also just e-mail them from the phone to myself and open them on the PC.


TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 09:14 am:

Robert,

All the rivets are the same aluminum ones.

Perhaps you are seeing the large steel rivet in the band which is used for retaining the quick change piece. (Seen in the disc sander photo.)
TH


(Message edited by thorlick on May 23, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Govoni Fredericksburg, VA on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 11:24 am:

The picture I was wondering about was the one you are setting with the bucking bar and center punch. So all were done with a pop rivet gun and the last two (end Holes) it was an aluminum rivet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 11:49 am:

Terry, Thanks for the wood band riveting seminar. Will refer to this when I need to replace the reverse and brake bands with wood. Had already done the low band in wood using the rivets provided in the kit. The thought of using pop rivets did cross my mind.

What would be the consequences of not rounding up the bands? Since I didn’t have a spare drum or pipe, I did the best I could with an old cart wheel. I do have some chatter in the low band, the old cotton band I replaced had none.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 03:11 pm:

Robert, I use Aluminum pop rivets for all holes. When they wear down like this they WILL rub against the drum.
Aluminum rivets seem to polish the center of the drum not gouge it. It becomes smoother to the touch with no loss of drum surface. Old drums run with cotton linings held with steel rivets leave a characteristic set of worn grooves in the drums... you see a lot of this on drums at swap meets.
Bob, I have done bands with no thought given to concentricity in the past. They seem to function just fine with the wood defining the shape mostly. I do often see a single spot on the band wearing down first and ending the life of the band. Usually this is after 6 months to a year of use.


TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 03:45 pm:

Bob,

When I did the rounding step I did small adjustments of the bend of the band free hand off of the mandrel. I only used the drum to eyeball where it was out of round. You can draw a circle on a piece of paper to compare the band to and accomplish the exact same thing. No mandrel is necessary, I only use the mandrel to hold the wood lining tight against the band for accurate drilling. It also stops you from blasting through the band on the first pass and tearing up the breaking surface. O bet that if you put a 3"-4" piece of galvanized pipe or a pipe fitting into your vice you can lay the band+lining on top of it and drill just as I have. You could even use a vice grip to hold the lining in place whilst you drill. I didn't show that as I do it with the junk drum.

My suggestion, use what you have and keep an eye open for a cheap junk drum at a swap meet.

The drilling operation leaves a pinhole on the inside surface which I then drill through from the inside of the band. That way there is no tear-out of wood on either side. I adopted this drilling procedure as a result of ruining some band blanks by drilling all the way through in one pass.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Govoni Fredericksburg, VA on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 04:31 pm:

Great idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 08:28 pm:

Terry, I use a junk drum for a similar purpose. To compensate for wear on an otherwise good drum, I fit a sheetmetal spacer between the band lining and the band. This restores the adjustment height. The sheetmetal spacer is clamped around the drum using the Ford band and the spacer is drilled through the rivet holes. That way the holes are always in the right spot when riveting the band lining on.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 11:19 pm:

Terry, That is one Very Great job and a perfect visual.
Those first worn out woods must have had a 100,000 miles on them!

I like your method but have not used that exact one. I believe Jim tells users to spring open the band and rivet each end first so that the band is tight against the wood when it relaxes.

I think the alum would be softer than the brass ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 11:44 pm:

If I were doing it I would never let the "expansion ball" in the rivet (tenth picture from the top). Great post Terry!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 07:09 am:

Dumb question:

Where are you getting the wood bands? Your first post hints that they are Guinn liners...is that correct?

(Message edited by rustyfords on May 24, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 12:08 pm:

It has been said "there are no dumb questions".

Guinn Bands


TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 08:20 pm:

I have to add an ATTABOY to Jim Guinn.

Recently I took one of my bands to ask Jim if I need to replace them when I had the engine of my car. I didn't know the original thickness and wanted to compare one. He looked at mine and said "Yup, there are still many thousand miles left on these and that's my problem, They don't seem to wear out so no repeat customers. LoL" He looked at one end of mine and said here you need a new one to replace this cause Someone (ME) had tried to tighten a rivet and cracked it. I asked Jim How much do I owe you... Jim said take it and have a nice day.

That's the kind of vendors we find with Model T parts sometimes.


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