FYI 1923 Ford Retro Fuse Block.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: FYI 1923 Ford Retro Fuse Block.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Thursday, June 14, 2018 - 07:57 pm:

This car was for sale locally, the fuse block seemed like a old Period ? Retro fuse block. They had a fuse for everything including the Magneto, it seemed unique so I took photos. This set up seems to provide protection for every electrical circuit on the model T. But one main 25/20 amp for 6/12 volt cars at the starter is considered basic now days, Four fuses is better and would cover main circuits.
"To Fuse or not to fuse" Your Car Your Choice.1923 Retro Fuse Block


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Thursday, June 14, 2018 - 08:07 pm:

The car appears to be a 1926/27 Ford Doctors Coupe but was mis advertised as a 1923. which I posted by mistake. "Sorry"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, June 14, 2018 - 08:51 pm:

Pretty nice way to wire and fuse, to me it seems a bit more newer than late 20's with the silk screened mfg. name repeated beside each holder.

There were period fuse blocks just for the Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, June 14, 2018 - 09:41 pm:

DUMB!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Thursday, June 14, 2018 - 10:23 pm:

Too many Coors.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, June 14, 2018 - 11:51 pm:

Thatís not nice Larry. Just because you insist on keeping things original even though they may have messed up the original design.
As I understand the situation with auto Insurance in the 20ís, many companies stopped offering fire coverage unless Ford added fuses. Typically Ford stalled. Ford did not add fuses because they cost him money which was tough to recoup when everyone else had complied with the insurance company directives.
I had an ammeter short to the body on the coupe. I was fortunate that it only burnt out the wiring and not my car barn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 02:41 am:

U Tube. Ford Model T burnout & engine Fire.
https://youtu.be/Etucn31tFVI


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt the Headlight Lens Guy n California on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 10:42 am:

I am not sure that I need that many fuses, but I might want one more.

Last week I put a horn on my car. It worked great. I went for a drive to the park and it blow the fuse. What is the rating of fuses you are using?

Matt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Manuel, Lafayette, La. on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 11:28 am:

For one thing, individually fused circuits would help isolate a problem. With one main fuse all you know is there is an electrical problem. What size fuse would be required for the various circuits?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 11:35 am:

That Chicago Fuse Panel looks pretty spiffy to me. I would think it would be a popular "unauthorized accessory" if produced today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 04:01 pm:

I agree a terminal block like the Chicago Fuse would sell quite well. Generally a 10 amp fuse should satisfy most circuits, lights etc but the horn may need 20amp. Generally the horn would be considers an accessory along with other similar stuff.

(Message edited by Tony_bowker on June 15, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Manuel, Lafayette, La. on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 05:00 pm:

Thanks Tony. I'm seriously considering fusing circuits individually as I am currently replacing EVERYTHING electrical to eliminate an elusive intermittent problem which blows my main fuse. Then in the future if there were an issue at least I would have some idea where the problem lies.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 05:31 pm:

Matt. I have a NOS China special 12 volt OOOGA horn instructions say to fuse for 30 amps, but it depends on the current draw of Your horn and the type of horn, OOOGA horns are motor driven and have a start up current or locked rotor amps which is greater than operating amps, but a model T buzzer horn should draw a lot less current.6 volt operation requires twice the current/amps for the same power output. I would fuse the horn separate from the other circuits with its own fuse. The fuse buss I posted the picture of has way more fuses than I think are needed but it seem's to provide protection for each light filament circuit with separate fuses for each. LL,RL,LH,RH,Tail,coils,mag,generator,main fuse buss input,horn. 4 to 6 fuses should be more than enough,but at least one 20-25 amp Main fuse is minimum requirement. David a version of the fuse block is still being made by Little fuse with two to 12 fuses. Automotive type bayonet fuse holders are also sold with tiny led lights to show which circuit is out ?
John on fuse size I don't know what the engineers would say but my take is add a additional 50 to 100% of normal current draw if its 5 amps go 7 1/2 to 10 amps, if fuse blows under normal operations increase fuse size, I am sure there is a electrical formula for figuring this perhaps some of the engineers on the board will give us a heads up.

If You don't believe in fuses. Disregard this post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 05:33 pm:

John Manuel - I have to say, the photo of that fuse block certainly shows a nice neat installation by whoever did it, but I pretty much subscribe to John Regans "take" on individual fuses for each circuit; that it's a bunch of additional connections to cause eventual problems.

Your comment John M. that "individually fused circuits would help isolate a problem." That's true, however, there is another way that even John Regan, former Fun Projects, Inc. owner & electrical engineer) would approve of I believe:

You can install one main fuse to protect the entire electrical system an still "isolate" a problem. If that one main fuse blows, you disconnect all six wire connections from the original type junction block, install a new fuse in the one main fuse holder, and then connect each circuit to the junction block, one at a time, and when you eventually re-connect the circuit that blows the fuse,....you've found the circuit that is causing the problem. Yeah, you'll waste one fuse, but they're really pretty cheap.

I suppose "Original Smith" would think that's dumb too, but I personally think it's dumb to take a chance on burning up a wire harness (or much worse) so that's my opinion, FWIW,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 05:37 pm:

Wow !! four fuses for the headlights ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 05:40 pm:

John Manuel - I have to say, the photo of that fuse block certainly shows a nice neat installation by whoever did it, but I pretty much subscribe to John Regans "take" on individual fuses for each circuit; that it's a bunch of additional connections to cause eventual problems.

Your comment John M. that "individually fused circuits would help isolate a problem." That's true, however, there is another way that even John Regan, former Fun Projects, Inc. owner & electrical engineer) would approve of I believe:

You can install one main fuse to protect the entire electrical system an still "isolate" a problem. If that one main fuse blows, you disconnect all six wire connections from the original type junction block, install a new fuse in the one main fuse holder, and then connect each circuit to the junction block, one at a time, and when you eventually re-connect the circuit that blows the fuse,....you've found the circuit that is causing the problem. Yeah, you'll waste one fuse, but they're really pretty cheap.

I suppose "Original Smith" would think that's dumb too, but I personally think it's dumb to take a chance on burning up a wire harness (or much worse) so that's my opinion, FWIW,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Dizer on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 07:34 pm:

If any of you that have newer trucks , and even cars, check your fuse listings or fuse boxes, you may be surprised to find four fuses for the head lights another for tail lights, instrument lights and then separate fuses for the trailer lights! Nothing wrong with having fuses in every circuit! They can be hidden from view if you want, but I like them there! Six volt wiring is pretty heavy gauge wire and it will pull a lot of amps, and get pretty hot if not fused! Why in the world would you refuse to be safer if you can? Technology has improved!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erick Keenan - Vineland NJ 08360 on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 07:50 pm:

Is there a specification on the proper amp rated fuse to use on each of the lines, I would use one if I am sure the rating is correct and I can hide the fuse block so as not to detract from the original looks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie, Memphis TN on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 07:54 pm:

That fuse block looks exactly like the ones we used to install on boats. If so, the terminals and clips are plated against corrosion, which is a good thing.

If I were doing that today, I'd check out Marine fuse blocks, and I wouldn't be surprised to find they have gone to blade-type plug-in fuses, just like on cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Dizer on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 10:38 pm:

To figure your load in amps, take the wattage, as with light bulbs, divide the total watts by the battery voltage to get amps draw. Figure in a bit more for resistance in poor connections, and that should tell you the amps draw per fuse. Go just a bit higher amp fuse and that should have it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 10:58 pm:

Harold. Another method of testing for a short circuit is to use a 6/12 volt test light with a probe and return lead. My favorite test tool when I was working at the Cop Shop, also better than a voltmeter for checking to see if a circuit or wire has voltage on it. available at most auto supply stores, or make one your self using small tail light bulb and a pair of leads any size bulb will work but in this case smaller is better,because they don't get as hot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Friday, June 15, 2018 - 11:08 pm:

Foot Note to post. a regular 6/12 volt auto lamp is what you want to use not a LED which is polarity sensitive and will light up even on a poor high resistance circuit where a tail light bulb will glow dim or not at all due to higher current draw led doesn't have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Sunday, June 17, 2018 - 10:05 pm:

Source for multiple fuse. Terminal / Fuse blocks.
Link provided courtesy of Tim Rogers.

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/fuse_blocks/littelfuse_ fuse_block_356_359_datasheet.pdf.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, June 18, 2018 - 09:27 pm:

If your generator circuit is fused and the fuse blows, then the generator will see an open circuit and quickly destroy itself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 12:49 pm:

In looking at a diagram of the generator cut out it opens the circuit to the electrical system and the battery as it cycles the generator. The shunt winding on the cutout is connected at all times to the generator so it has a small load and is not open circuit. Will the generator go into a runaway state with the cutout still connected to the generator but disconnected from the cars electrical system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 01:13 am:

Wow guys there is a LOT of wrong info in this thread and yet I want to help but I can't take you all on since I would be arguing with most of you. If you don't know how to calculate the right size fuse then please don't advise people how to "guess" at it.

ONE FUSE is all you need to protect the wiring of the car and THAT is the purpose of the fuse. Additional fuses are not needed with such a simple wiring diagram since the lightest gauge wire used in the T is still able to blow a 25 amp fuse if there is something wrong that needs to blow that main fuse. The system in a T is a 20 amp system. model T battery horn draws 5 amps from 6V battery. Ahooga horn is not a T horn. Cutout by itself does NOT protect the generator from burn out since it represents less than 50 ohms of load on the generator when the cutout is in the relaxed state (open). I don't see how a light bulb is better than a volt meter for testing a circuit since low voltage can indicate a severe load on a wire while a light bulb just lights up to a varying degree of briteness or dimness. Pure guessing

If you want to use a bunch of fuses you will make a gigantic problem out of a simple one. You can put your eyes on every wiring connection in a Model T in a matter of minutes and fuses are for wiring harness protection even though they are undesirable because they add yet one more connection. If you have a short every day somewhere different then perhaps you ought to consider a new wiring harness rather than a ton of different fuses.

I suspect I will get a ton of differences of opinion on this but there are too many people here with too many different ideas and I don't agree with enough of them to take on the rest of you guys :-) Have fun but I have posted in the past on this and know all the arguments in favor of lots of fuses and to me they are bunk. I am sorry if I offend anyone but I am getting old and have no patience to argue again what I have argued in the past. Do what you think is best but good wiring protected by one main fuse is the simplest most reliable and safe system that you can have IMHO.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 01:44 am:

Ah come on John, think of all the fun a guy can have on a tour with a 10 year old fuse block with 10 fuses.
He could stop every few minutes and sand a fuse holder and get his T running again. And all the lights working.
And not even get his hands dirty.
I donít like roadside restorations. So I donít have any fuses in my T. I made my own wiring harness with modern plastic coated wires with stop and directional wires in the harness.
Did all that in 1997. Only problem I ever had was about 12 years ago one thumb nut came loose on the back of the ammeter. Car stopped on the freeway in San Jose.
Took about 5 or 10 minutes to figure it out.
When I got home I put RTV on the terminals on the back of the ammeter and screwed the nuts back on. Should stay tight for ever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 02:11 am:

John
Thanks for You information. Your knowledge and wisdom is legendary and admired by all. I posted the fuse block photo because I though it was a neat installation and a interesting way to fuse every circuit, which I agree You don't need to do. I have one fuse on My 26. I like the test light for a quick power or no power indicator and unlike a voltmeter will place a small load on the circuit so if there is a resistance/ bad connection the light will be dim or dead where the voltmeter may read close to normal voltage.I also used high dollar digital fluke meters and oscilloscope's when needed. My experience was not working on Model Ts but helping to keep more than 5000 police cars on the street. We had to diagnose electrical problems quickly and get the cars back in service.I have seen with My own eyes a 30 amp fuse feeding power to a trunk mounted two way radio with a partially shorted wire pinched under a rear seat bracket in a police car that smoked a portion of the wire but didn't blow the fuse. Rare "YES" but it can happen. Also I asked in My post for the calculations for properly sizing a fuse and gave the way I do it. How do You do it ? John Thanks for all that You do. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 03:17 am:

A generator appears to destroy the cutout when it's not connected to anything.
I like the idea of all those fuses BTW. Beats having a car like my 1950's one someone wired with only red wire & had one fuse next to the battery for everything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 01:12 pm:

Convenience in fuse location is not a priority since the fuse is supposed to protect wiring and it in fact only protects wiring on the downstream side of the fuse. Thus if you run a wire from the battery in a T up to the barrier strip and put the fuse at the barrier strip as pictured in the "fuse maze" then a short to ground in the wiring run from the battery to the barrier strip will not be protected since a short to ground in that run will not cause the fuse to blow and the wire up to the fuse will be cherry red and burning rather quickly. A single fuse placed at or nearest the source of the power gives maximum protection for the wiring but only to the wiring on the downstream side of the fuse.

Fuses cannot by definition be pre-tested so you are relying on the engineering of the fuse design for it to work but that is rather well understood. There are also various types of fuses and you cannot assume that all fuses operate the same. Mainly you must DERATE a fuse depending on its ambient temperature. Thus a 25 amp fuse may blow at 22 amps if the fuse is placed in the engine compartment. It may blow at 20 or less if mounted just above the exhaust manifold. I may not blow with 30 amps passing through it if you are on a North Pole Tour but for sure I won't be there so you are on your own :-). Often when a fuse seems to blow for no reason it is called a "nuisance blowing" of the fuse and can be caused by its location or insufficient rating to allow for its location. A fuse typically carries more current on a cold day than in the middle of a dessert. To really offer protection you need to choose both the size of the fuse and its location. The location is chosen for wiring runs being downstream from the power source and heating and cooling devices are furthest away from the fuse in general. Having said all that if you place the fuse in a "smart" location then an often used rule of thumb is to size a fuse at 1.25 x "normal carry current". Thus because a T is a 20 amp system I would expect it to be protected by a 25 amp fuse. The wiring should be simple and while it DOES add 2 additional connections in the power path which is bad, it is the smallest price you can pay to have a good safety device to protect the small wiring in the T. It should blow to prevent damage due to a direct short in the wiring. You could not possibly be better off without it in the event there is 25 or more amps flowing in the main battery power wire from the battery to the Model T wiring. Thus the argument that you will burn out your generator if that fuse blows is silly since if it does not blow you could lose the whole car.

I am sure someone will disagree and that is OK with me since in the final analysis it is YOUR risk and your car.

Someone will probably suggest a "circuit breaker" but look very very carefully at the amount of current it takes to trip a breaker and how long it takes for that to happen. Most breakers have ratings that include 200% over current ratings and time delays at those currents that are not impressive. In brief they give the illusion of protection. Some have argued that they are safe or they would not be used in aircraft. While aircraft breakers are likely way more expensive than any T guy would ever consider paying, the main thing is that in a plane you can't pull over on the side of a cloud and check out why the power is off. You have nothing to lose by resetting the breaker and a lot to lose if it doesn't reset.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 04:07 pm:

Did you just defend someone wiring my 1955 car with only red wires for everything and removing the original fusebox & putting a single fuse at the battery? Because it's rubbish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 08:51 pm:

NO. I was only talking about the T. I had a 1955 Ford in high school though. It was a Sunliner convertible and was really good for quail hunting :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 01:06 am:

Sanquentin Quail ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 11:35 am:

We referred to them as walking quail but I think we are talking about the same species.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 12:33 pm:

Ain't it GREAT! Being old and remembering lost trivia from times past and the way things were in a simpler time and place without computers or smart phones. A little old man in the back office with a green visor on his head kept the records and his system never crashed except maybe on monday mornings
when he was a little hung over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 01:05 pm:

Bump


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