Should I Pull the Hogshead?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Should I Pull the Hogshead?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 06:54 pm:

Soon I'll be swapping my the temp engine, out of my parts chassis, into my 24 Touring. I plan to have it live there a couple years and then put my T's original engine back in, rebuilt.

Everything looks good on this temp engine, valves, babbitt, cylinder bores, transmission drums, bands , etc.

My question is based on what I saw with John Mays' recently acquired 25 sedan. His engine looked fairly decent as well, but when he pulled the hogshead, he found some parts of the magneto had come loose and fallen down into the oil reservoir and they could've done some damage if they'd been thrown around.

So...should I pull the hogshead and inspect everything thoroughly? This engine supposedly hasn't been run in decades. It's just sitting in the parts chassis now so it would be easier to do than normal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 06:59 pm:

I should add...I REALLY don't want to pull the hogshead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gene french on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 08:06 pm:

Don:
since engine is very accessible now it would make sense to do any inspection and adjustments before it's being started and driven Ö check everything INCLUDING the oil line ...always an optimist...gene french


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Fuller on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 08:15 pm:

Pull it now. It is much easier when the engine is out of the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 08:37 pm:

I agree with Gene and Ed.
It is so easy now, youíll really kick yourself if you have a problem once itís in the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 09:23 pm:

Don,

Do you have the engine mounted on an engine stand? Can you turn it up side down to see if anything falls out?

I am sorry but I would advise pulling the hogs head and doing a through inspection. It sounds like you have checked everything else. It is not too hard to do out of the car


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joss sanderson on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 09:28 pm:

As everyone else said, not hard to pull and reinstall outside the car. I always run my engines on a stand first. Lots easier to deal with any problems that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 09:29 pm:

Yes, better to do it before it's in the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 10:40 pm:

If it has bands installed, might as well make sure they are quick demountable type now rather then later. If they are not, you would have to pull the cover later anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 11:55 pm:

Dern you guys and your good advice.

Looks like I'm pulling the hogshead.

Neil...it's sitting in a bare chassis. It's not on an engine stand (I don't have a Model T engine stand).



Mark...it does have bands installed and they look decent, but they're not on demountable bands. I need to buy a set of those.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 12:04 am:

I guess another benefit of pulling the hogshead is that I can do same basic magneto charging procedure that I did on my other engine.

Those magnets were very weak before and afterwards were strong. I was even able to start the car on magneto.

The beauty of this particular method is that all you have to is just line up any magnet and coil...no worrying about all the north/south stuff. I just hooked up three car batteries in a row, hooked up positive to the mag post and flashed the negative to the transmission case four or five times.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 12:36 am:

You will have an opportunity to check all kinds of things easily , find a buddy with a engine stand you can borrow, and a lift. You can take up the rods and mains, check crankshaft runout, condition of mag ring and give the case a good cleaning. These are things Martyn Vowell and I did to get Derrick Pang's Runabout up and running better for driving around town.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 08:29 am:

Now I'm wondering how hard it would be to adapt a regular engine stand for Model T purposes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 08:35 am:

Looks like I need one of these:

https://www.modeltford.com/item/T-ESADPT.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 08:42 am:

Or...I see that there's a more expensive version that allows for more access.

I really need to learn to weld better, then I'd be able to fab up something stout on the cheap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 08:58 am:

LOL I also loathe pulling the hogshead. But everyone is correct about going ahead and doing it now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 10:39 am:

I'm sorry to say I haven't thoroughly read Steve Jelf's "Dauntless Geezer". I wouldn't be surprised if he had an orderly procedure outlined to make pulling the hogshead easier. Two things to make it go smoothly - use a "Ford type" band ear clip, and secure pedals firm against the cams so they don't flop around. You can get fancy and make a simple clamp to do this. I'd advise against "gluing" the cover in place by using permanent sealants on both sides of the gaskets - that can make for a difficult and unpleasant experience next time you need to remove the cover. Sealant on the bottom side keeps them in place while you position the cover, and stops oil leaks where they're most likely to occur, between the cover and the sheet metal of the pan which is generally pretty "wavy" from years of tightening bolts and squeezing gaskets .

I don't understand the infatuation with removable ear bands. I'd hazard their intemperate use may be part of the cause of overheating causing drums to crack, as it's difficult to snake bands in and out of the small opening without pulling them out of round or kinking them. It's much easier to keep bands round and un-stressed with the hogshead off. Don't forget changing over to removable ear lugs requires modifying the low speed pedal shaft and the adjustment screw in the case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 10:43 am:

You have a gift if you want to pull the transmission cover and its already in open view! Believe me this is the easy way!

I have a 24 coupe that I've pulled the cover twice and it ain't easy by no means doing it in a closed car.
Don you don't have to be a disjointed contortionist to pull it when it's just sitting in open view on the frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 12:00 pm:

I pulled, and reinstalled, the hogshead on my 24 Touring while it was in the car.

It was the single most unpleasant automotive task I've ever performed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor, Citrus Heights, Ca on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 12:18 pm:

Here is an engine stand adapter I made on the cheap will hold the complete engine and trans. No welding required.

engine stand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 02:23 pm:

Not necessarily , when we did Derricks car we borrowed a stand from Tom Lovejoy, went to the hardware store and got a piece of angle iron and drilled holes for the pan and stand arms and it bolted right up. I'll look for a pic I might have to show.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 06:40 pm:

Also would be a great time to install an outside oil line on the top side of the cover while it's off.

Of course it's always good when you can run the engine before it's installed in a full bodied car. It looks as if yours is easily started where it sits.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 09:30 pm:

Don, Conroe TX, You have never changed the water pump on an XJ6 Jaguar, have you?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 10:29 pm:

No I haven't Wayne. I've heard about it though, and I've heard it's quite the ordeal.

Gene, I have one of those on the hogshead on my other engine. I may just use that hogshead on this engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 10:42 pm:

Wayne...for me, the previous record holder of "unpleasantness" was an alternator on a Honda Odyssey minivan.

It belonged to a single mom in our neighborhood who was living on a limited budget. I got word, through my wife, that her car was DOA in her driveway and diagnosed it for her. The Honda dealership quoted her over $1,000 to do it. I told her that was ridiculous because an alternator swap shouldn't take more than 30 minutes.

Turns out, on that model, to get the alternator out of the engine bay, you have to drop part of the front suspension. remove the radiator and hoses, and remove the front bumper and some of the structural components in the front of the car.

I pushed that #@!(& thing into my driveway at 8am on a Saturday and didn't get it buttoned back up until well after dark. It was dreadful. But I did save her $1,000 so I'd probably do it again under the circumstances.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Friday, June 22, 2018 - 02:02 am:

Don, that reminds me of the time my neighbor asked me to put a starter on his wife's older Lexus. These are nice people and I put a lot into keeping peace in the neighborhood because I have a lot of junk. Not everyone likes to see old cars and trucks in a rural environment. They are on their way to the country club down the road. Anyway I said sure bring it over. I put it up on the lift and could not see a starter anywhere. So, it turns out this Toyota based V-8 buried the starter in the Vee under the intake manifold. Crap. Oh well, I'm committed so I pull all that off this Japanese thing including the electric water pump and a bunch of plumbing underneath it and finally see the starter. At that point I see the bolts securing it come through from the back side of the bell housing. They cannot be removed because they are almost touching the firewall and are four inches long. "Crap" had now become "Oh Sh!t! So now I had to remove the rear transmission mount and disconnect the exhaust pipes on both sides so I could lower the engine down far enough to pull the starter bolts out under the floor tunnel. Ten hours to put a starter on this bastard. Sure was nice to drive, though, and the neighbors are happy. I thought pulling a starter off a T center door sedan sucked. Not really by comparison.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Friday, June 22, 2018 - 02:20 am:

Don, most of the T's we see have a worn out low notch/low pedal support. This is the cam arrangement that clamps the low band on the drum. When it is worn it requires you to adjust the low band very tight so it will grab before the pedal hits the floorboards. This means when the low band is released it will drag and make the car hard to start as well as overheat the drum. Take care of this now and both you and your Model T will be much happier because when all adjustments related to bands and clutch are correct, the car is fun to drive and more reliable. While you are in there you can put o-rings on the pedal shafts to control leaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 22, 2018 - 03:06 am:

Wayne,
Boy do you bring back (bad) memories!! Back when I was much younger and was driving a '46 Ch**y, I had to change the water pump, $20 for an exchange pump, and less than an hour to do the job. My boss's Jag also needed a water pump change out--$200 for the KIT of parts, and I believe it was 8 hours to R& R plus taking the pump to a shop with the equipment to press the old parts off the pump and press the pieces onto the new shaft & pump. I think the car was down for at least 2 days once the parts came in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, June 22, 2018 - 04:09 am:

When you lift the hogshead and check the bands - consider changing them even if they seem to have lots of thickness left.
Bands sitting in an engine subjected to temperature change and thus condensation over decades tends to rot and thus fall apart very shortly after you start driving it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Fuller on Saturday, June 23, 2018 - 09:40 am:

Don,

I completely agree with Erik's recommendation of replacing the low pedal notch and support while the hogshead is off.

I can confirm that worn pedal notches will drive you crazy trying to get your bands and the low to high gear adjusted probably.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, June 23, 2018 - 01:40 pm:

Good advice to repair the trans cover while it's off. You will thank yourself for doing it now and not later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Saturday, June 23, 2018 - 03:13 pm:

Thanks for all the input. It is sincerely appreciated.

Fortunately, On my other hogs head, I replaced the slow low speed notch and added an external oiler. So I think Iíll use this hogshead instead of the one on my temp engine.






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