Brassworks radiator discussion

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Brassworks radiator discussion
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, June 24, 2018 - 09:05 pm:

I've raked them over the coals on brass radiators, so now it's time for the black ones!
While cleaning up my '25 this afternoon, I noticed the right hand side panel is loose where it is supposed to be soldered to the top tank. So the only thing supporting the panel is the radiator shell. I'm not stopping there. When I purchased the radiator, I got two flimsy brackets that are supposed to be riveted to the radiator. I glad there weren't, because they were not made correctly in the first place, and I had to get a pair from a junk radiator I had. The originals were made in such a way to support the square nut while you are holding it in with you finger so the nut won't turn, and then I had to rivet the bracket on correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 12:25 am:

Lol careful Larry, you go around posting unpopular opinions like this and they'll just delete your thread with no explanation. Ask me how I know . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 01:00 am:

It's possible that when assembling the radiator to the car that you might fasten the shell to the radiator in such a manor that it pulls on the radiator side panel. Over time with vibration of the car the pull will eventually break the solder joint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 01:04 am:

It seems there is a healthy market for cheap reproduction model T radiators that are perfect in every way. Would someone please step up and fill this need? I have used Brassworks products for many years. It has recently come to my attention that the business was sold some time ago so that the original owners could concentrate on enjoying old cars rather than trying to satisfy others on the cheap. If you can do better, make it happen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 03:30 am:

Larry ....I've had the same experience with my brass Works Radiator on the 26 Runabout. Purchased about 1998 I have had the side brackets come loose experience the same flimsy brackets that you described. I guess we're lucky enough to have a local radiator guy to fix these things.... I wouldn't exactly call that a cheap radiator experience at the time, believe it was in the $900 range


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 04:24 am:

Side panels breaking the older joint at the top is a common problem, even on original radiators. It is a relatively easy fix. The little side pieces onto which the radiator shell is bolted are of a more solid design on the original radiators. When the shell is fitted it needs to bear on those brackets. If the screws are used to pull the shell to the brackets, this will put the side panels under tension, and will stress the solder joint at the top.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 07:47 am:

I would never buy from them again. I did buy a 26 core once that was good. The next time I called them about a more rare radiator, I got a huge price and "buy it from us or you will not find it". Wrong, found another outfit out east that did a great job for one third of the price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 07:50 am:

I would never buy from them again. I did buy a 26 core once that was good. The next time I called them about a more rare radiator, I got a huge price and "buy it from us or you will not find it". Wrong, found another outfit out east that did a great job for one third of the price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 08:37 am:

Interesting that the Model T repair manual from Ford and others, like Dykes, have sections on how to solder and soldering the radiator to repair them.

I wonder was this a common problem with the T as there is evidence of early information on the repair of a radiator?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Monday, June 25, 2018 - 10:03 am:

Seems to me that no one is looking for a cheap radiator- just one that does not have workmanship issues and a manufacturer that stands behind their product when there is an issue. It's not unreasonable to expect solder joints not to fail after a few months or a few years of service. Our cars are not driven that much and are usually on pretty darn good, smooth roads, my point being they are not abused, driven hard vehicles. Perfect in every respect? not so much, properly assembled? yes.
Brassworks certainly fills a niche market and I think we are all grateful for that, so thanks a bunch for being there. If the business is comfortable with their reputation, so be it. Nuf said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 12:57 pm:

I noticed mine came loose there too. It's a low black radiator and has been in use for 30+ years.
Yes, radiator repair was part of the game in the teens and twenties. I have done enough radiator work to appreciate what goes into them. I can't fault Brassworks for the problems. They try to make these affordable. I just bought a flat tube one for my speedster. I didn't want to wait for a Berg's. We are lucky any of these are available to us.
I also understand the disappointment we have when things go wrong.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 02:25 pm:

I for one can appreciate the extreme difficulty in reproducing any part accurately and in material equal (at least) in quality to original. I'm thankful for the folks who are doing so ! ('Taint easy !!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By The Brassworks on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 03:56 pm:

In Model Ts solder is on the top side of the tank and a return bend (flange) in the sidewall that is soldered underneath to the header. A rivet in the header or tank could cause premature failure due to vibration. I compared one recently constructed to some OEs in our pattern collection and have attached the photos. affixing a T sidewall
I will explore a larger flange soldered to the header as it is not visible and would provide greater solder surface area and may help.

A bracket is sent with a tinnerman fitting to locate and rivet to the sidewall and then affix the shell to the bracket. This is done as we have seen variation in the placement in OEs.

If you require an alternative design please request it when ordering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 10:13 am:

To BW's: How does the modern solder compare in strength and fatigue resistance to the original Ford Solder? thanks, jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 10:29 am:

James you are thinking and typed it before I got a chance. Solder has never been known for strength.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 11:13 am:

I’ve seen many, many original Ford radiators with loose sides at the top tank and many, many more that weren’t loose but showed evidence of being repaired. Even evidence they had been repaired multiple times.

Back in the day, every small town had a full time radiator shop. The factory guarantee on the Model T was 30 days. I would suspect that some vehicle owners went years without any radiator issues and other vehicle owners needed a small leak repaired or something else touched up every season... Just the luck of the draw / vehicle condition / driving habits / reassembly errors / and yes, maybe some manufacturing variances.

Is it possible that Brassworks radiators have longevity as good as, or maybe better than originals?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 11:19 am:

Mack: I agree, and while I do not have a brass T, my 'instincts' tell me the modern lead free solders are weaker and more fatigue sensitive than the original lead/tin materials. I could be all wrong about this, but 'improving' a material that was relatively weak to start with, may be contributing to the problems. Just my 0.02$ worth, jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 12:53 pm:

The lead free solders are a big source of problems in electronics as well and cause many premature failures.The digital readout in My 2000 Buick went dim and then out, I pulled the instrument panel and found the four series resistors going to the display had come loose and several had fallen off the circuit board do to crystallized lead free solder. I keep a roll of the GOOD stuff for resoldering. I am glad My house has pipes that don't have lead free solder joints or after almost forty years there would be leaks a plenty ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 12:56 pm:

To be considered modern soldering and early 20th century soldering.

1. Solder is an alloy. The greater the tin concentration, the greater the solder’s tensile and shear strengths.

2. Solder needs a flux. There are a variety of flux.

So if you repair a radiator, what is your flux? Will you you use rosin core or acid core?

Torch or iron? The soldering iron, electric or solid copper?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By The Brassworks on Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 06:21 pm:

A lot of issues related to electrical solder seem to end up on this forum in radiator solder comments. I cannot speak for other radiator manufacturing but we use lead based solder . It is sourced from California. It is recycled primarily from bullet ranges in the US. The tin comes primarily from Canada. The metal is melted and the dross removed until it has achieved 99.94% purity.

Generally speaking...a cold solder joint or dirty solder surface can cause an early failure and all solder joints will ultimately fail in time due to vibration, time/oxidation and occasionally erratic thermal heat cycling.

I'd like to know what Ford's thoughts were on part longevity. He did not exclude radiators in his 1925 warranty but he also only permitted 90 days

.

It would seems there was a need for their repair based on the abundance of repair shops that have since shuttered. radiator shop

Chart is attached for the questions on strength.

solder strength

Please email me directly if you have further questions as I only check the forum occasionally.

Happy Motoring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 10:05 am:

BW's, thanks for the information on solder, jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 03:05 pm:

I have a feeling that if the 'purists' could go back in time to the ModelT era they would get a big surprise when they closely inspected Model T's and how they were built and the detail issues that would show up.

A restored Model T that has been closely gone through and has taken at least a year or so to do the job is a better built car than one that was built on the assembly line back in the day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Williams, Hillsboro Oregon on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 04:50 pm:

Amen John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 06:20 pm:

John, Tim etal:

From the archives of stuff sent before regarding the purist and restoration:

"But when a car is restored and stating the restoration was done "without having the car suffer 'restoration damage' by erasing it's history" is a bit much. Especially if all the paint is chemically removed and as much of the original coach work wood is saved as possible. This comment is based on an over multiple over restoration of a Bugatti Atlantic T57SC that appears from time to time in automobile magazines and blogs. Additionally this car is described with " (It) can probably claim to be the most original." How can it be the most original when it was taken down to bare metal with every fastener used to hold the car together removed and replace so the car can claim to be a show winner at Pebble Beach."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry K. Lee on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 06:47 pm:

The Brassworks,

I and my father for many years have used your products from the brass era up 1927 in our collection of cars. From Speedsters from hell to dead originals....., NOT one failure. You reproduce a very specialized item and in my years of engineering and design, most are not properly attaching the radiator on it's mount, the front springs are all rusted up, shackles are binding, and the liking. If a replacement part fails, look into other possibilities before pointing a finger or a stick in another's eye. Yes, I am defending the Brassworks and their products. If you can do better, do it. Bashing on a forum is very unprofessional and not cool. Call them, resolve, they will. But being a demanding a$$ on the phone is no way to get results. Everyone makes mistakes and WE all have good days and bad days. Treat others as you wish to be treated, I do, and get kindness, respect, results. Lets be humans first for Gods sake.

My $.02

Hank in Tin-A-See


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 07:54 pm:

The Brassworks has always stood behind their products. So be careful who you bash unless they refuse to help you with your problem. Solder joints do fail but that is normal and easily fixed. So lighten up on your attacks or we will loose another source for Model T parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 12:56 am:

Maybe you should not use Coors Light as your cars coolant. I have 5 radiators from Brass Works and no problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 06:06 am:

Good one Joe!!! Made my day and am still chuckling over it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 10:57 am:

Unfortunately the reference to the ultimate failure of solder is true. I had cracks leaking along to top sides of the tank on my 1915. I applied new solder but the stress of driving soon had them leaking again.


I added brass reinforcements. They have a decidedly non-stock appearance, but so far they're holding.

Now I have a drip from the seam where the inlet attaches to the tank. I suppose I need to invest in some proper soldering equipment. Anything I have now is either too hot or not hot enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:04 am:

The title of this thread is really inappropriate, "More Dirt on Brassworks". Sounds like tabloid trash talk.

So you had a problem with a Brassworks radiator... O.K., how is that "dirt"?? A solder joint popped, OMG!!!, that happens to lots of radiators, old & new, re-solder and move on...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:08 am:

I have to say, from BW's very professional replies here I'll certainly be looking their way when I cave and buy a new rad.

I wonder if perhaps they could do a line of heavier duty radiators with bigger flanges or rivets or something on the black ones and ornamental tank reinforcements on the brass ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:26 am:

I don't think rivets is the way to go. I would much rather have to solder the bracket than to have the rivet pull out and cause a leak!
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:28 am:

I believe Brassworks would be willing to build whatever we would be willing to pay for. Our 1909 radiator has come unsoldered like Steve's at the top tank sides. It still works fine with no leaks and I plan to resolder it soon. The 1915 radiator I bought in 1985 is still giving good service. It does have some seepage at the bottom tank in front. I feel the 5 radiators I bought from them are a good value and worth what I paid for them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Rootlieb on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:38 am:

Keep in mind that there is a 10% royalty paid to Ford. On top of that there are excessive insurance requirements to be paid that cover Ford from liability. At some point these external costs tip the scale to the unprofitable side and these parts will cease production. We can thank the lawyers for all this. In my 45yrs. in this business I have seen parts availability come and go making restorations more difficult and costly.Because this is a business and not a hobby for manufacturers I have found that they work first to resolve issues with customers, but sometimes the old saying “you can’t please everyone “, holds true. In the end it comes down to this , can the guy doing the work make a living making this part? The production or nonproduction depends on the answer to that question.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:53 am:

The question to me is how many Brassworks customers are satisfied with their radiators and how many are not.

We have about 6 folks here unhappy.

How many happy folks do we have?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:58 am:

The high royalty and high minimum were why I didn't do Ford when I was manufacturing signs. Many of the brands I made were in the public domain, and free. The ones I paid for licensing were 5% or less.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 03:32 pm:

How is this thread still going?
"Oh no, a soldered joint behaved like the soldered joints used to 100 years ago and eventually vibrated apart, whatever will we do?"

Solder it up & get a life maybe?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Bohlen on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 01:56 am:

I have been in this hobby for 50 years. Many guys have gone out of there way to make parts available for the Model t hobby. My hats are off to these people that take the time and money to do so. I guess my bottom line is that if you can do it better then do it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 03:17 am:

My personal observations, being both a satisfied customer and a dissatisfied one.
The helpful nature of the Brassworks shown in this post is in stark contrast to the response I had with quality control with tbe assembly of my black radiator. This is a good thing. It shows a change in attitude which should go some way to mending a few bridges.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 08:56 am:

Similar to Steve's example, a past brass radiator that I had developed leaks on the outer top corners, where I discovered that the bottom plate of the top tank had fractured where the outer ends bend upward and attach to the roof of the top tank. No practical way to save it, and BW quoted 3/4 the cost of a new one to rebuild it, so I replaced it. I believe this radiator was built properly and that vibration had simply taken it's toll. The cost of these makes me cringe, but as noted by others here, where else are you going to purchase a complex constructed assembly like this, that looks like it was professionally built? Would be great if there were sustained others out there to chose from, but that hasn't happened, where a safe bet is that there are sound economic and other reasons for this. That said I'm one of BW's satisfied customers.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 09:17 am:

One of the local Model T guys put the costs in perspective for me. He says "Be glad they aren't airplane parts".
Paying for a new radiator has only hurt for a little while.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 09:18 am:

I really don't think it's a good idea to rant about any business that manufactures products that are for mostly used for people's hobbies.
If they can make enough money to do it and stay in business my hats off to them because it helps the hobby to grow and create more interest. If there's someone out there who can spend the money, time and put up with the hassle and people who buy their products and can make better ones then please step forward and do it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 12:13 pm:

The Model T Hobby is blessed because we have so many people willing to make parts for the Model T Ford. However, that is still a small number and we cannot afford to loose any of them or we will be in the same position as the more expensive antique cars and be forced to make the parts ourselves. So lets stop harassing what few manufacturers we have and be thankful we have them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 04:41 pm:

Yeah but the stuffs gotta work. Is that too much to ask ? Did the original brass jobs break up like the new replacements do ? If they did I think we'd be hearing more about that too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 04:54 pm:

I think we do know about how reliable the original radiators were, just look at all the old restorations and original survivors that come up for sale with honeycomb or other non-Ford radiators on them. They didn’t have an Internet to gripe on in the twenties, instead parts got replaced as needed and life went on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 05:05 pm:

Let's be fair here. In 1914 (brass era) one publication offers 14 advertisements for places to have radiators repaired. You would have thought by 1914 radiator construction would have been perfected.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 05:31 pm:

Every product will have a few failures. The only gripe you should have is if the manufacturer will not fix it. Forget the hypotheticals, I have never heard of Brassworks not fixing a problem. So stop complaining until you have given them a chance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Sunday, July 01, 2018 - 02:56 pm:

well at least they didn't delete the discussion, they only changed the title. Thank you


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, July 01, 2018 - 03:27 pm:

I agree that was a good decision to do that very thing. Thank you and the hobby thanks you also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Correll - Carlsbad CA on Sunday, July 01, 2018 - 04:11 pm:

The only failure I've had with a Brassworks radiator (installed in my '14 Touring in 2010) WAS AN ISSUE I CREATED by over tightening the hood-radiator support rod. In 2015, when the leak got bad, I asked for recommendations / assistance from Brassworks, they (Lee Chamberlain) told me what flux get and mailed me a length of the 40/60 solder they use -- no charge. (40/60 is not readily available in California because of the lead content). From my experience, Brassworks has a great product, remarkable service & is a quality business in all my dealings with them. Brassworks - keep up the good work - and thanks for your assistance. I'd buy another radiator from them without hesitation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fords Masterpiece . nj on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 09:29 am:

LOL i can not believe that Glen !!!
With all respect i think they are lovers .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fords Masterpiece . nj on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 09:32 am:

Seth in Alabama , you were wrong . Now they dont delete . They just reprint peoples opinion .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 11:10 am:

No, We are not lovers. I just respect those who have chosen to try and help people in the hobby by manufacturing parts for them. I cannot understand why they get no respect from those they help! Those who don't appreciate what they do don't deserve their help. So give them a break and work with them on any problem instead of trashing them on the forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 11:21 am:

Well said Glen. Along with being able to fabricate things most of us can't, it takes a certain knack to relate to customers. I would think the majority of the customers are grateful and understanding. The majority of vendors are doing this out of interest in the hobby. Not just for the dollars. When things don't go as we think they should it is good to have discussions about it. I'm not sure we have solved all the problems here but hopefully good things can come from this.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 12:09 pm:

It is unfortunate but it is real easy to sit behind a keyboard and be the big man on campus. Sad really.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fords Masterpiece . nj on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 01:07 pm:

IM sorry Glen but i was referring to whoever deletes the thread and the manufacture not you my friend . I think many many times we saw the complaints about that company . Many many times !!! Not only for many many different fails on the product itself but warranty , and the most important disrespect from their customer service . You can just search for their name and you will see . I think theres no more need for anybody to talk about this . Just search and you will see . Unless this Forum is Financed and by the manufactures , we the collectors are here to express what we think about the hobby , parts etc . Personally i never bought from that seller but clearly , very clearly they have a problem and the worse is customer service . And Glen : just manufacturing parts and throwing out there and dont stand behind and not having the best cost relations doesnt mean you deserve respect !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 02:46 pm:

Mayby you guys will understand when all of the suppliers disappear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 03:34 pm:

You're absolutely right Masterpiece...there is no more need to talk about this...please set an example and give it a rest.
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 04:11 pm:

Glen - from all your posts here and on the classifieds (BUSINESS FOR SALE), one would swear all the suppliers are making/selling parts out of the goodness of their hearts - pure altruism, with no concern for profit. We, the consumers, are supposed to be appreciative, humble, grateful, etc - and we are also supposed to rue the day the suppliers get tired of any complaints and decide to stop “helping” us out. This is ridiculous!! I chalked up your comments in the classifieds to your frustration about finding (or not finding) a buyer for your business- but now you’re bringing that “you better be grateful” attitude over here. It’s nonsense.

Do I agree with what the original poster wrote - or more specifically, how he phrased his comments? Absolutely not - but it’s pretty typical of his consistently abrasive and usually unhelpful comments on here (and I’ve been reading them for years). I own a Brassworks radiator and have no issues with it thus far. I also own 6 Berg’s radiators - because that is my preference as a consumer and my right in a free-market economy to patronize who I choose.

I work too damned hard for my money not to shop around, seek the input of others and make a measured decision before dropping a load of cash on a part - radiator or otherwise. Quality of product and customer service are HUGE criteria in my decision-making process and I appreciate this Forum as a medium for gathering feedback on both. Sorry if suppliers don’t like that.

You’ve mentioned several times that you’ve made a good living and don’t need the money. Great. Congratulations. Continued success to Mark and Chaffin’s going forward. That success is obviously due to quality products that are sought after by paying customers who made informed decisions about where to spend their hard-earned money. Inferring that we need to keep our observations about quality to ourselves and be fawningly “grateful” no matter what is condescending and insulting. Unfortunate that it is now being expressed on multiple threads with a respected supplier as the author.

(Message edited by Conversiont on July 02, 2018)

(Message edited by Conversiont on July 02, 2018)

(Message edited by Conversiont on July 02, 2018)

(Message edited by Conversiont on July 02, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 07:00 pm:

Ron, They are making them out of the goodness of their hearts. They all want to help the hobby while making a modest profit. We, as a manufacturer, have been blessed with few complaints, but no one deserves to be dragged through the mud unless they are unwilling to fix a problem. To often a customer goes on line and starts trashing a supplier without ever giving them a chance to fix the problem. This happens all the tine on this forum and is not right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fords Masterpiece . nj on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 10:30 pm:

Glen , Simply :why are you buying a problem thats not yours ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 10:56 pm:

I agree with Glen. Too often people gripe on the forum before contacting the seller about a problem and giving him a chance to make it right. I did it once myself, and I was rightly called out on it. Whether the operator of a business is in it to help the hobby or just to make dough is irrelevant. To give him a chance to correct a problem is the decent thing to do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 12:42 am:

Ok i'll shut but think about what in said. It's a problem for all of us if those who just like to complain and cause problems are allowed to drive all of the dealers out of business with their crap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 08:41 am:

No longer own T's but I still enjoy reading and learning on the forum. I'm not surprised Chris changed the title but I am surprised this thread is still going. What I'm not surprised about is the OP has never commented again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks NY on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 10:09 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 01:11 pm:

I think we should hold suppliers/manufacturers of T parts to the same standards as we hold others. EG if we purchased a defective or otherwise unsatisfactory part for something other than a T, we would complain and hold the supplier or manufacturer responsible. And express an opinion about as well. I see no difference. I have heard time and again from T suppliers, mostly Chaffins BTW, "If you don't like it, make it yourself" How long do you think someone else would stay in business if they said that?"
Another thing that gripes me is all the praise I see for Chaffins. I quit buying from them because they are so slow in delivering goods. I was told that if I wanted a part to be sent that day, I would have to specify and pay for next day delivery. Otherwise I'd have to wait until Dave was able to fill the order. I personally don't blame Dave, he has to take orders, discuss problems with purchasers, pack and ship items himself. I suggested some time back that there were many retired T enthusiasts that would be happy to work part time to assist for a nominal wage. To my understanding that was never done.
Compare that service to that of Snyders or Langs. Items are shipped out that very day or the next. I see all this praise for Chaffins. How come no one has expressed this shortcoming?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 01:26 pm:

I haven't expressed it because I haven't experienced it. I buy from almost all of the Model T parts dealers, and so far all my purchases from Chaffin's have been shipped promptly.

"Make it yourself" makes me think of Alexander Winton. The Packard brothers suggested some improvements he could make. He told them, "If you don't like my car, go make your own." So they did.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 01:30 pm:

Same with Lamborghini, he was told to go make his own car when he suggested improvements to Ferrari.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 03:29 pm:

This is sort of changing the subject I guess, but frankly, I've read just about enough "negativity" in this thread anyway:

You guys make me wonder if an interesting book could be written about "famous quotes of automobile manufacturers".

A favorite of mine is from Etore Bugatti (not sure of that spelling) who said about Bentley;........ "they make the fastest trucks in the world!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 03:32 pm:

Richard, Sorry you had a bad experience with shipping. Most orders are shipped the same day as ordered. But if we are overwhelmed with orders or something is back ordered it may take a little longer. But if you are truly in such a hurry you shouldn't wait so long to order. The shipping can take 1-3 days depending on the shipper. Please work with us, we are really trying to help you. Glen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 03:35 pm:

Hmmmm,.....I seem to notice a sort of pattern here! Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti,.......

What'd'ya think Steve Tomaso???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 03:38 pm:

Ooops.....Sorry Glen,.....I was typing too slow at the same time you were typing,......just my little attempt at trying to "keep it light",.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By The Brassworks on Thursday, July 05, 2018 - 07:52 pm:

Larry -

That explains why we have no record of sale in the last 12 years. I'll contact Chaffins and try to find out when this 1926 radiator was manufactured.

Sorry you had a problem 9 years ago. I remember the radiator and re-read what you said today and back then. Based on your comments on the 2009 forum (below) I stopped repairing Model T radiators but that does not mean I did not hear your criticism. The header to top tank joint has been improved/corrected (see photo). Its closer to Ford's radius now. I still would not use the parts you provided due to their age and condition. If you're in the area please stop in and we'll show you how radiators are constructed so you can understand why you cannot just mix and match the parts. I can also show you the consequences of using brittle metal with stress cracks like your parts had. Restorations always cost more because they take more time and most of our cost is in labor.

Thanks again for your new comments/feedback. We'll be looking at the return flange size in our next batch of sidewalls.

Best Regards,
Lee


By Larry Smith on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 01:22 pm:

I took my raidator to the Brassworks about a month ago, and explained that in needed a new core, sidepanels and front trim, thats all. The owner, Lee pointed out it would be cheaper for me to just buy a new radiator. I pointed out, that many parts on my radiator were from my original radiator, and some of the parts were NOS. They finished the radiator in time, and I used it on a tour a week ago with no problems, as far as leaks go.
The first thing I noticed, was they didn't take the perfect orignal water inlet that was on the old radiator, and transfer it. They returned it. The next thing I noticed, is they didn't use the NOS bottom tank support straps either, but they are not original to a brass radiator anyway. Ultimately, they returned all of the parts to me. I am really unhappy now! They didn't use the original front panel or back panel either, and they didn't transfer the NOS bottom tank. So all I got on my rebuilt radiator is the original filler neck!
The most obvious problem is they don't form the top header of the radiator core to the top tank properly, and although it works, it doesn't look right, BECAUSE IT ISN'T! I told them about this, but they have ignored my emails about the problem.

I think they have a problem. Beware. Oh, I didn't mention, I never complained once about the cost.



On 7/5/2018 2:33 PM, Larry Smith wrote:
> Lee:
> I appreciate you contacting me even though I've not been happy with your work. I bought the radiator from Chaffin, and it's really a '26. I've never bothered to remove the wire clips from the bottom tank.
> The radiator you really pissed me off on is my original '13 radiator that I brought up to you, because I thought the core was leaking. You never even bothered to tank the radiator! There wasn't a thing wrong with the core, and after you sent it back to me I FOUND THE PROBLEM, not you. The radiator inlet on the bottom of the top tank was leaking. You tore my beautiful radiator all apart, when that was the problem. Greg Gouvia made that radiator for me, and I have a lot of NOS parts in it too. You charged me about the same price as you new radiators too, and your design is inferior too.
> I'll never forgive you for that mistake.
> Larry Smith


model t header radius


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Saturday, July 07, 2018 - 12:55 am:

Fired up a chassis today, another post. The only problem I did not have was an overheating and radiator issue. I’m using a 1915/1916 Brassworks Flattube. Nice job guys!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Saturday, July 07, 2018 - 08:31 am:

I was once approached about vinyl siding to cover the wood lap board siding on my house.

I was listening to the discussion when the following wisdom was revealed.

"Vinyl siding is low maintenance. Like a Model T Ford, it will last forever."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Saturday, July 07, 2018 - 10:09 am:

95 degrees last Saturday and we drove our ‘13 touring about 90 miles. It has a 10 year old Brassworks radiator and the motometer was below “summer average” for the whole trip. After 10 years the radiator doesn’t leak and appears to be in excellent structural condition. Just my experience with the one Brassworks product I own...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fords Masterpiece . nj on Saturday, July 07, 2018 - 10:23 pm:

AND THIS TOPIC BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE FRIENDS OF BRASSWORKS !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, July 07, 2018 - 10:38 pm:

Being the titewad I am I have soldered up a few things on old radiators and used them. These things are like jig saw puzzles.Complicated .You get 1 part hot enough to solder and another part comes unsoldered. :-(
I must admit,I don't quite understand not using nos parts on a repair.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Saturday, July 07, 2018 - 10:48 pm:

Unfortunately, lots of nos parts aren’t any good... that’s why they never got used in the first place....


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