26 Roadster Brake question Lunges while slowing in neutral

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: 26 Roadster Brake question Lunges while slowing in neutral
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerald Blair on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 08:45 pm:

Hi
I have a issue that started a week or so ago that seems kind of odd and I think it is a rear brake issue but want an opinion before I tear into it.
So what happens is when it is cold it seems fine and everything works great. After it is driven a few miles and warms up and if I stop and put on the hand brake in neutral position the car seem to lunge while slowing. Or when you try to pull away it is hard to get moving but if you go ahead and put the hand brake all the way forward holding the pedal in the neutral position things seem fine it seems fine. The hand brake does not seem to be adjusted too tight and I did not have this issue until a couple weeks ago. Anyone have a thought about why this would be happening? Could it be oil on the brake shoes causing this? I am going to tear into it this weekend but would like to hear what some of you might think first.
Thanks
Gerald


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 08:55 pm:

Check the springs holding the shoes in position as it sounds like the shoes are loose and jamming.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 09:02 pm:

A few questions: 1.What type brakes are you using? is it the original transmission brake, or do you have some type of auxiliary brake? The answer to this question would have a lot to do with what could be causing the problem. 2.have you done any work on the car just before you noticed the problem? 3. Why are you putting on the parking brake to neutral while you are stopping? You should be slowing down using the compression of the engine and when you are in neutral, you are using only the brake but not the engine. 4. Do you have a Ruckstell or any other type auxiliary transmission?
Please answer these questions. Then we can better diagnose the problem.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerald Blair on Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 09:22 pm:

1. It does not have any auxiliary brake just the hand brake and the band in the transmission.
2. I adjusted the bands a year ago and the rear brakes at the same time when putting the car back together. The issue just appeared recently.
3. I use the engine braking most all the time. If I am rolling up to a stop light I will pull the brake back to the neutral position just so I know I am not dragging the bands while setting there. I do not pull it all the way back to the parking position.
4. No Ruckstell or auxiliary transmission. the car is pretty much all stock.
Thanks if you have other questions let me know


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:35 am:

In that case, I would suspect: 1. Brake band is worn or drum is cracked. 2. Your parking brake is dragging. 3. The rear axle needs a rebuild.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 11:47 am:

Take the drums off the rear brakes and look for a broken spring as Tony suggested or anything else out of order. Then take the inspection cover off the hog's head and look for something amiss in there, such as a cracked drum or worn band as Norman suggested. Could also be the clutch grabbing, maybe due to worn drums where the disks ride. Also, something could have gotten out of adjustment such as the cam on the parking brake lever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerald Blair on Friday, June 29, 2018 - 09:54 pm:

I will pull the rear wheels off tomorrow and look for a loose spring and see what I can find. Not sure why band or drum would cause it if it only does this when the hand brake is pull back to the middle position but does not do it if I leave the hand brake all the way forward and just use the pedal but I will pull the inspection cover and see what I can find in there as well. Thanks for the advice it is much appreciated.
Thanks
Gerald


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 06:02 am:

Don't forget to check the cam at the hand brake. The bolt may have come loose. Also the linkage there that activates the clutch. Something may be out of adjustment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerald Blair on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 12:25 pm:

I have taken the drums off and it looks like the hub is rubbing the axle housing cap and the shoes are rubbing the drum. Is that something that can be fixed with the rear axle taper shim and a new axle housing cap housing cap? There is also some grease leaking out and that might contribute to the brake grabbing so I would replace the seals while in there. Any Thoughts on that?
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 12:45 pm:

Gerald,

Shoes rubbing the drum may be causing the grabbing. The shoes can be rotated by the friction force and cause them to self activate, similar to Rocky Mountain brakes.

I have axle shims in my car. I had to use several to space out the drum the required distance. This is caused by worn axles and/or worn thrust washers in the rear end. See if you can move the axle in and out. You should not be able to feel any movement. From the photos it looks like there may be some wear on the axle but not that much.

You can replace the cup and felt seal or go to a modern seal. The cup is a press fit and hard to get off. Pry with a large screw driver. If you use the modern seal, install with a little Loctite where the O rings mount on the housing boss, otherwise they will spin on the boss. Grease the seal part and put tape over the keyway slot so you don't cut the seal surface.

The brake shoes are a different design on my 1915 car. There is a bolt in the back that both shoes pivot on. Interesting.

There are some good videos on the internet showing seal replacement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 02:09 pm:

Gerald

Your hub bore wear is needing a taper steel shim to fit the axle taper. vendors have them, or you can make you own from shim stock.

Have used stacked shims, sometimes works, but other times a single shim of the proper thickness is better. Try .005" one, maybe .008" or .010" is needed. You want to put the shim into the hub bore hole when you slide on the hub, the shim will be already in the bore, and will wedge well against the axle taper.

Goal is to have the brake drum edge, when the axle shaft nut is tightened proper, to be just outside the backing plate, if the drum edge is protruding and overhanging the backing plate, that hub bore is too worn, or axle taper is too worn.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 03:20 pm:

My guess would be that in the middle with the lever, you are not completely in neutral and partially in high gear. Check the adjustments.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerald Blair on Saturday, June 30, 2018 - 06:51 pm:

Trying to find some shim stock. If I don't find any this weekend GasLight Auto parts is just around the corner from where i work and hope they have some in stock. Dan I was glad to see your pictures. I sketched a shim in CAD and came up with the same dimensions so I guess I did that part correct :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerald Blair on Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - 07:08 pm:

Update: I replaced the felt seals, axle caps and shimmed the axles. The issue is gone. After driving it about 35 miles on the 4th I had no issues and think I could actually tighten up the brakes a little. Thanks for the help


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