Hogshead Wrestling

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Hogshead Wrestling
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arthur Babitz on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 06:44 pm:

A couple of months into T ownership, I decided to tackle the transmission band replacement. The need became apparent when I could no longer get up my driveway in low gear. Both low band lining and reverse lining were shredded. I thought I'd share my experience for others who might be planning this job.

After watching all the videos an reading all the required reading, I decided to go with wood bands. The manufacturer makes it clear this is a "hogshead off" job, and I wanted to see what the transmission looks like anyway. So I removed a bunch of bolts, got the exhaust out of the way, disconnected starter, throttle rod, etc. Note 1: Keep track of which bolts came from where. Hogshead bolts that are threaded into the casting are a finer thread than the ones which have nuts and lockwashers. At least mine are. Some bolts are longer, too. Note 2: I followed the Ford manual instructions to block up the front of the hogshead with a 2" wood block, so the starter and Bendix can be removed in one piece. It took quite a bit of twisting to do this. I don't have magnetos, but it's hard for me to imagine I wouldn't have damaged them if they were there. At a minimum remove the Bendix cover since that lets you see what you're doing.

I discovered the rivets the manufacturer supplied were steel (stuck to magnet) so I decided to use aluminum pop rivets. The manufacturer describes machining a tool from a standard countersink to sink the rivet heads into the band. It seemed to me such a tool must already exist. A local woodworker introduced me to the "Forstner bit". He built me a little wood jig so I could clamp down the band liner, and let the Forstner bit with a collar do its job without fear of overdrilling the hole. He also had a right angle drill, which is mandatory for this job. A note I haven't seen in other threads: we used 3/16" rivets, since they are available in more lengths. My brake bands had 3/16" holes, but the other two were 11/64" so needed to be drilled out when we drilled out the band liners. When you buy rivets, they need to be pretty short-- I used the ones with a 1/8" grip which was just about right. They grip nice and tight. We tried longer ones and weren't happy. We used a 5/16" Forstner bit. The rivet heads are exactly 5/16" so it's a pretty tight fit.

Drilling, riveting and peening the rivets was time consuming but I'm sure the next time will be much faster. The only wisdom I can offer on that process is to observe you want the bands in a stretched position (at least the 8" diameter of the drums) when you drill the rivet holes so that 1) the lining will fit tight when the band is tightened, and 2) there is an awful lot of stress on the rivets when you stretch the band over the drum to install. Forming it to an 8" or larger disk reduces that stress when you spread the ends by 8" to get over the drums.

Next note: we used zip ties instead of a transmission band tool, but they really get in the way trying to reinstall the hogshead over the band ears. The plastic was always in the wrong place. Maybe there's a better way to do it, but next time I will use a transmission band tool.

We used waxed dental floss to keep the clutch spring actuator in the right position to fall into its slot. The waxed floss slid right out when everything was in place.

After reinstalling the bands, we tried a "dry run" placing the hogshead without gaskets or RTV. It immediately became clear this would be a painful job. The exhaust manifold thread, U-joint, engine mounts, steering column, engine block all conspire to make positioning the hogshead very hard. So we protected the exhaust manifold thread with a bike inner tube piece, and sat down to rewatch all the YouTube videos. All of them either showed how to do this job with the engine on a stand, or they cut away just at the moment they lowered the hogshead, and faded back in to someone installing bolts. Perhaps 3 hours of someone cursing and grunting isn't compelling video, but we could have benefited from some pointers.

What we finally figured out was this is really a three person job-- one person at the u-joint end, and one at each corner in the engine compartment. There were two of us, so I stood with one foot on each hood shelf, the hood support rod between my legs, bent over so I could grab the starter motor hole with my right hand and the other corner of the hogshead with my left fingers. With my friend at the u-joint we were then able to get the fine control you need to rotate past the exhaust manifold, engine block, and u-joint. You need eyes and fingers on each side of the firewall, so I have no idea how a single person could do this job. Finally there was a 1 inch gap, then a little bit of moving the cover back and forth, and it was 1/2", then 1/4", then close enough to put in some bolts and start drawing it down onto the gasket.

After reattaching all the remaining parts and changing the oil for good luck it was almost anticlimactic when I fired up the engine and tested it all out. My driveway has a 17% grade so I tested the gears in my short garage before I had the confidence to go down the driveway. Fortunately I just rebuilt the parking brake so I knew I could stop if the bands didn't grip. Success! Bands need a little tightening, some oil leaks need attending to, but I now have bands which I hope will last a long time.

I hope there are some hints here that other beginners find useful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James G Fisher III Peachtree City, GA on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 06:54 pm:

Wow. Did you take any photos? And thank you for writing this up. Don't know how I will try it when the time comes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daren Carlson on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 07:01 pm:

Aluminum pop rivets?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arthur Babitz on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 07:27 pm:

Yes, there was a thread a few weeks ago about aluminum pop rivets in wood bands. We basically followed his method, with the exception of using the Forstner bit to set the rivet heads. You pop out the core of the rivet, and peen it nice and flat on the outside of the band so there's nothing in the way of sliding the bands in and out.

Next time I'll have two more helpers: one to grab the third corner of the hogshead, and one to take pictures. I will post a picture of the jig for setting the rivet hole a little later, but no "action shots".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 08:05 pm:

Pulling and replacing the hogshead on my 24 was the single most unpleasant thing I've ever done to any car, of any kind....ever.

I'll never do it again with an engine installed in a car.

I will literally pull an engine out of a car and place the engine on a stand in order to change bands in the future. Call me silly....I don't care.

I'm about to dig into a spare engine (on Wednesday) and will be pulling a hogshead, but I'll be doing it all on an engine stand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 10:00 pm:

Open car= Block and tackle from the ceiling.
Closed car= Portable engine hoist thru the door opening..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 10:38 pm:

A few years ago I changed my 1923 touring's band linings through the inspection door, without removing the hogshead. It was slow, difficult, frustrating, and at times infuriating work. But, having done it once and learned some things to do and not to do, I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. I doubt that I'll ever achieve the forty minutes allotted in the service manual, but I think I can do it in less time than it would take to remove and reinstall the engine, or even to just remove and reinstall the hogshead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Monday, July 02, 2018 - 11:14 pm:

As others here have duly noted, this is probably one of the most unpleasant tasks you will ever have to endure working on a T, especially if you do it by yourself. And some models are worse than others I'm told. :-( After contorting my body into positions i haven't tried since i was a teenager i decided the last thing i wanted after all this trouble was for this sucker to leak, so here's how i did it with great success.

1) Use Permatex ultra black, its highly resistant to oil, and gives you plenty of time to work with it.
2) Evenly apply the Permatex to the crankcase and set the gaskets in place.
3) Ditch the stock front felt gasket (mine always leaked like a sieve). Some here have said that they coat theirs with success, but i just made one out of an old inner-tube i had.
4) Let everything set up before attempting to install the H/H, preferably overnight, or you risk moving of squeezing the gaskets out of place.
5) Liberally coat all the surfaces of the H/H and wrangle it into place. Repeat the process of letting it completely dry before starting it up, and you will probably have a nice leak free job. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim R. Wynn on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 12:21 am:

Just changed all three bands a few months ago. It took me longer to re-line than to install with a band pulling tool. Quick change bands are the way to go! About an hour and a half start to finish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 02:13 am:

Or you could do this, alter the hogshead so that only the pedals themselves are removed.

Trans01
trans02

I have posted this before but every few years this same problem comes around. This would be a good winter job, especially if you have a spare hogshead as you can make it and have it ready to install when you next have to change the bands especially if the hogshead need removing.
There is an accessory LHD hogshead called a Hudco which I got the idea from if you can"t find one someone should have a photo.

I just did a RHD version. If you can weld its an easy job. Just get some 1 1/2" by 1/4" flat bar and make up a flap to go around and cover the area you cut out. Find the most suitable sections on the Hogshead to go around the pedals and place sections of the flat bar and shape them to the curves of the Hogshead.

Drill and tap each side of the flat bar inset bolts in the threads to locate the bar and cut the ends/corners of each border piece to match up and weld them to form a complete circuit around the area to be cut through.

Remove the flat bar piece and cut through the hogshead in the center between the drilled/tapped holes. It is easy to just use a hacksaw as the cast iron is soft and thin, you may have to use a thin blade to get around the corners.

Once the section is removed you can place the bolts in the cut out section and use a good sealant to make up any gaps between the bar and the hogshead piece. Cut off the bolt heads flush this will now be a permanent fix.

When you place the cut out pedal piece back in the space there is only the thickness of the hacksaw blade between to two parts. Use silicone on the flange of the pedal section and bolt it in.

A bit of thinking about exactly how you proceed be required and there are several different ways to fit the surrounding flange especially at the ends which have to go under the trans cover but it is not that hard.

When you have to take out the bands you undo the bolts and pull off the pedals, being so small and light it is an easy job to get it out even working through the door in an enclosed car.

You can remove the pedals change the bands and replace pedals on the band ears and have the whole job done in 15 /20 minutes. The problems getting the pedal shafts into the band ears is so easy as you can use one hand to hold the pedal section while you use the other one to guide and move ears and their springs around.

Something that can be done on the side of the road with only a couple of spanners.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 10:40 am:

Wait until you get to pull a hogshead in a centerdoor. That's when you know you are having fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 11:13 am:

A few thoughts as I now have done the wooden band thing several times.

1) I agree, never use steel rivets, shame on anyone supplying them.

2) I used an angle drill mounted to my drill press for about ten years and liked it. Eventually it wore out (cheap plastic version) now I just use the drill press by gently twisting the wood liner whilst drilling the holes and counter bores. As an angle drill tends to flop around a bit I find the direct drill press method much easier.

3) I made my counter bore tool as it is quite easy to do. The trick is to use a drill depth stop collar on your tool. I hate the Idea of using a Forstner bit. Look closely at a Forstner... it does cut a square bottom hole, but to achieve a sharp cut there is a little knife edge which cuts a circle slightly (a few thousandths) in advance of the main chipper blades. You end up with a little incised circle going a bit past the bottom of your counterbore. This weakens the resulting counterbore. The Center hole must be drilled first so a jig must be used with a Forstner since itís center spike has no wood to guide on! Using a jig for the Forstner will prevent you from twisting the band to get at the end holes for boring. My home made tool has a center post which holds it in position nicely.

My Tool:




Forstner bit:


IMHO,TH


(Message edited by thorlick on July 03, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 11:16 am:

Just curious, have you fellers who liberally "glue" the trans cover to the pan by using an RTV sealant on both sides of the gasket had any difficulty removing the cover, or has that even come up yet ? Seems to me you'd want the cover to release easily. Fighting to part a cover stuck tight to the gaskets with "Ultra Black" may add yet another struggle to a difficult job. A lot of T owners seem phobic about a little leaking oil, I guess they're more used to being around a few generations of new iron that have been remarkably "continent". It's the nature of the T to leak some of every fluid they contain !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 01:51 pm:

Rich, I did my bands and hogshead this Spring. I used Permatex #2 which is non-hardening. I was convinced I would have to take it back off for a reason yet to be discovered. I based this projection on my past experiences of usually goofing something up the first time.

It was a good call, because I did have to take the hogshead back off because the band tool had become stuck inside the transmission. So I sliced through the Permatex but not the gaskets, fixed the situation, then applied more Permatex before reassembly. It was pretty goopy. I used the felt gasket which had become liberally coated, and I mean liberally coated, with the Permatex. It all went back together, and there are no leaks.

If I had used Ultra Black, which is awesome stuff almost everywhere else, it would have set up before I had finished monkeying with this assembly. It wound up taking me 2 days to get it all done, made possible by Permatex #2.

BTW, I used wire to tie the bands together for installation. The tranny tool and the zip ties did not work for me. I was working alone. Not a bad job after you figure out what you are doing. Here is a link to my first go-round disaster:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/822076/848439.html?1524096693

Hope this helps you! Cheers, Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 03:04 pm:

Rich, I used Ultra Black once and had to use a putty knife driven into almost every inch of the split to get it apart. I now use Permatex Hi-Tack and disassembly is easy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 03:07 pm:

William, Pat, kinda what I thought, thanks for posting !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 06:00 pm:

Ultra Black is fine. When you're ready to install the hogshead, lay a bead along the top of the pan. Go around the holes on the inside. Smear a layer of grease on the hogshead, put it on, and bolt it down enough to form the Ultra Black into a gasket. After it sets, finish bolting down the hogshead.

I also do this on the inspection cover. It's easy to remove when screen-cleaning time comes around. When I put the cover back on I just smear new grease on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 07:44 pm:

Steve, Do you have any leaks with the grease on one side? Yes the Ultra Black sticks very good that's why is it such a great product for a 1,000 uses. I have a very thin putty knife that I keep just for removing the inspect cover or trans cover and use it to tap along one side then pop the other side off. I don't normally use any gaskets.
It is rather tough but I'd rather have that then oil leaks.
I'd like to try Steve's idea after I hear about his success. I know permatex says to remove any oil from the surfaces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 09:54 pm:

Didn't mean to start an argument about using Ultra Black, just thought I'd share what worked for me. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 03:03 pm:

Permatex #2heels best for the hogs head ultra black in other areas
Another trick is
Block the front wheels
Take 4 u joint bolts out
Jack up rear put 4x4 just ahead of center
Lower the rear this drives back rear axle a little
So you have room at the u joint end
Now after you install hogs head putty knife some sealent over all seals
I totaly agree bands on a center door is fun job i pull the engine first


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 03:14 pm:

The folks in Twin Bridge, Wis have some techniques I have not tried but look to work better.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arthur Babitz on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 03:31 pm:

Well that's definitely "hogshead wrestling."

I have to say after reading all these replies to my post I'm feeling pretty good about the job we did. It sounds like we didn't miss any obvious shortcuts-- it's just not an easy job.


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