Temp Engine Refresh

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Temp Engine Refresh
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 10:12 pm:

I bought a 1925 chassis for parts and will be installing the engine in my 24 Touring on a temporary basis. The plan is to run it for a couple years while I save up for a first class rebuild on my car's original engine.

I'm not a novice mechanic, but I am a novice Model T mechanic and I know I'll have a lot of questions. I'll use this thread to document the refreshing of this temp engine and to ask questions. I'd appreciate any help that the knowledgeable folks here can offer.

Here's the chassis. I paid $300 for it and am hoping it was money well spent. In addition to the engine, I'll be using several other bits like the rear springs, accessory engine support, battery cable support bracket, starter button, gas tank, and more.



I bought the chassis from a hotrodder who pulled the coupe body off to use in a ratrod project. He initially thought he'd get the T running, but gave up before even trying to start it. And thankfully so. He went absolutely hog-wild with blue RTV gasket sealant and gooped it everywhere...even on the head gasket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 10:19 pm:

Today, I pulled the engine out of the chassis, placed it on an engine stand and started a limited disassembly.



I pulled off the head, the hogshead and the valve cover first. As I mentioned above...the previous guy went crazy with blue RTV. Thankfully, he never even tried to turn the engine over with this stuff all over everything.



(Message edited by rustyfords on July 04, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 10:39 pm:

Tranny looks great. I am guessing you got a deal here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 10:45 pm:

The babbitt looks pretty acceptable on the connecting rods and caps. The cylinder bores and drums all look decent as well.







This engine came with a few "modern" ammenities like a 4 dip pan and quick change bands.

But all is not sunshine and roses. I checked for loose bits in the oil pan and found these little dudes....part of the magneto assembly.



Which leads me to my first dilemma. My fear is..if these little screws and plates are dropping off the magneto, then more will follow. I do really want to have a working mag because I consider it to be part of the overall Model T driving experience. My question is...if I decide to pull the transmission apart to get at, and replace the magneto, will I need special tools or super secret Model T engine knowledge? Or...is this something that a pretty competent mechanic can tackle in his garage?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 10:50 pm:

Thanks Dave. I'm hoping that's the case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 11:27 pm:

You did good. I bought a chassis in a little worse shape but with a few extra parts for $400 about 9 years ago. I rebuilt the mag, crank miked good so I adjusted the rods, ground the valves and put new rings on std cast iron Ford pistons. I've driven it plenty around here on county roads after adding fenders and a cheap wood open body.
I do things the hard way I guess but I didn't have special tools to work on the mag. I bought a rebuilt field coil and recharged the magnets. Takes a lot of measurements and putting the flywheel on and off to set the gap. I don't have a starter or even a battery so it works fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 11:35 pm:

That's encouraging Corey.

I guess I'll go ahead and finish stripping it down. By the looks of it, I need to pull off the oil pan in order to get at the drums and then the magneto.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 11:40 pm:

Don, the only specialized tools you really need are a spring compressor to remove the spring pin, a puller to remove the clutch basket, and a puller to remove the driven gear. I made some from stuff laying around the shop. Setting the proper gap for the mag takes a bit of time and some give and take with a bunch of shim's. All very doable to someone who knows how to wrench in general. :-)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 11:42 pm:

You'll have to remove the pan and I always disassemble the transmission with it still attached then when you unbolt the flywheel it's not so heavy and I assemble it like that in reverse. I've seen the whole transmission removed as a unit but I don't have enough equipment for that. You will need a clutch drum puller.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 11:50 pm:

Thanks John.

Will a regular puller (like one used to pull a harmonic balancer) work?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2018 - 11:57 pm:

Somebody told me I got lucky with this, but I took a steering wheel puller and some 350 Chevy head bolts plus a little wire to hold it together and made one. I used it about a month ago and it was in a good bind when it popped. I bought a transmission separate so had it sitting on end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Thursday, July 05, 2018 - 02:38 am:

If your not planning to rebuild the engine but get it running slow down a bit and check a few things first. Remove the inspection plate on the oil pan and remove the rod caps one at a time be sure that you mark the cap so you know which side is on the cam side. See if there are shims under the cap, inspect the cap and babbitt. If it looks good the push the piston down a bit and see what the babbitt looks like in the rod. Take a caliper and measure the through at 90 degrees by turning the crank, if it’s close on the 2 measurements, put the cap back on just like you took it off and repeat on the other three. If they all loo good, babbitt, shims & through measurements then remove the pan. I suppose you could remove the pan before it’s just the way I was taught. Then mark the fly wheel and crank flange so that you put it back in the same position, the way you took it off. Remove the 4 bolts holding the transmission on. You’ll need to order new brass screws and if your missing them magnet facing plates. Take the transmission off and grind the end of the brass screws off for easier extraction. Don’t grind the heads of the brass screws but rather the ends more than likely they’ve been punch. One at a time remove and replace the screws. Be sure to use a flathead screwdriver that is snug and one that covers the slot completely. As always look for any cracks in the magnets. You’ll also want to inspect the drums for any cracks too. Find a plastic 5 gallon bucket an put the transmission in the bucket drum side down. This will give you a could platform for you to take out and replace the screws. Once completed put it back on the way you took it off base on the position marks you made. Mind you this is just the basic but not thorough dis-asembly and assembly to get you going. The pictures seem to show your valves are not 2 piece type so they may not need replacing. You may want to seat the valves if they need it. Again this is just a short way to use minimal dollars and effort to get you engine up and running. Your mileage may vary. Best of luck John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, July 05, 2018 - 06:41 am:

A basic inspection like John T. T mentions can help you feel comfortable with a "freshened up" old engine. Do check for one piece valves in it and replace the valves if they are the old two piece type (they are prone to breaking from age).
As for the transmission. Many an old model T transmission has been thrown into a car and run reliably for many long miles and years of good service. However, then there ARE "the others". Any way you look at it? It is a gamble. You may take the thing completely apart, find it is all good, and feel better just knowing it is good. And one can toss a tranny into a T and wind up with major regrets when it goes the big munch a couple months down the road. Back on the other hand? I put an unchecked transmission in a T I put together as a temporary engine and had the nicest, most quiet best working transmission I ever drove in a model T. Until I replaced the engine with its permanent and well rebuilt engine. When I took the tired wheezy old motor apart? That wonderful quiet smooth transmission literally fell apart on the engine hoist. When I took it apart and actually inspected it? It was one of the worst most worn out planetary transmissions I ever saw (even the flywheel was junk!). I was surprised it ran at all, let alone so nicely. So I was lucky for a couple thousand miles.

Personally? I would still consider running a decent looking transmission without taking it apart. But I am not sure that I would recommend it.

For what it is worth? The magneto magnet bolts can be replaced without taking the engine completely apart. But I would recommend removing the flywheel and transmission from the engine for one reason. The fact that you have at least two broken screw heads indicates that at some time in the past, someone probably tweaked those screws a bit hard. That would suggest that others may follow suit and also break. It also suggests that if someone has worked on it? You should at least closely inspect the magnets for any sign of cracking at the bottom of the "V".
The fact is, that a flywheel magneto that has never been messed with or damaged in any way? Likely will not have a magnet ready to break any time soon. There is of course always the exception to that rule. I have taken apart several transmissions over the years, and found quite a few magnets that were either broken or ready to break. They were almost always on flywheels that showed some sign of damage or tampering. And yours does, with two broken screws.

Good luck! However you decide. And mostly? That engine looks really nice (except for the blue stuff)!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Thursday, July 05, 2018 - 07:43 am:

Thanks for all the great advice and wisdom John and Wayne. This is exactly why I started this thread.

I'm completely comfortable leaving the transmission alone. What's really causing me concern is the magneto starting to come apart. That's what I want to get access to and repair or replace.

I think that's what y'all are describing.

Now to locate the 4 bolts that are holding on the transmission. When those are removed, does it just slide off as a unit, leaving the field coil ring only, attached to the engine?


(Message edited by rustyfords on July 05, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Thursday, July 05, 2018 - 08:30 am:

If you take it off as a unit there are 4 bolts that hold it to the crankshaft. They are safety wired and you have to remove the rear main cap to remove them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Thursday, July 05, 2018 - 08:43 am:

Since components of the magneto assembly are failing, you need to go in there and just do the magneto. If you have an engine hoist it is easy enough to pull the transmission as a unit. Get the magnets re-charged and a re-wound coil ring. There are may threads here on setting up the magneto, but the electrical book will be of great help. Buy or borrow the KR Wilson tool for setting up the magnets on the flywheel. It will save a bunch of time. Also you will need a brass feeler gauge to set up the gap between the coil ring and the magnets. The specification is 25 to 40 thousands, but the closer to 25 the better the output. See if you can find some T folks in you area that have done this to guide you through it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Thursday, July 05, 2018 - 08:43 am:

Do not need to remove the main cap. A socket and a extension and rotate the crank to find clearance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 07:32 am:

Yesterday I pulled, inspected, adjusted and reinstalled all four connecting rod caps. I also removed each piston, cleaned off built-up carbon and carefully reinstalled each one in the same orientation that they came out in.

Then I dropped the oil pan. Good thing too..because I discovered two band washers and a nut in the pan.

During my time doing all this, I reminded myself why I was messing with this spare engine in the first place...and that was to cheaply get my car running while I save up for a first class rebuild on my car's original engine.

So, then and there I decided that I wasn't going to mess with the magneto in this temp engine. All the other components in this engine look good and I'll be ok running the thing without a magneto if it gets me a Model T that moves under its own power, instead of the static display that I have now. Plus, I can avoid spending the $$ for a new coil ring, magnets (if any are broken), magnet screws, and so on and put that money in the kitty for my "real" engine.

If I diregard the magneto, I think I have everything in my possession right now to get this temp engine running and installed in my car.

So here's where I need advice. I know I need the structure of the magneto to fling oil around. But if I just want it to perform oil flinging duties and nothing else, what do I need to inspect and do to the magneto to make it safe to run given that bits of it have already come apart?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 08:09 am:

As previously mentioned, you’ll need to remove the transmission because 2 of the 16 brass screws already failed thus releasing 2 of the ‘clamps’ connecting the magnets. Buy a set of 16 brass screws from T parts vendors. I’d go the extra mile and determine none of the 16 magnets are cracked and you have continuity in the mag field coil. Once you’ve completed the spare engine and Ross rebuilds your other engine; I’d also acquire, frame and hang the Model T lubrication picture also available from the vendors. The T is maintainance significant to ensure your continued enjoyment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 09:45 am:

If it's a real '25 frame, it will have the two rivet hand brake quadrant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 11:59 am:

It does appear to be the case Larry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 11:59 am:

Thanks George. I'll be pulling off the transmission this week.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 12:09 pm:

Another thing I worked on yesterday was the crankshaft pulley.

It was in pretty awful condition and needed to be replaced. As I attempted to drive out the pin, I smacked the pulley rim a few times and it separated from the hub of the pulley that attaches to the crankshaft. The rim was now free to roughly spin around, making it really hard to strike the pin.

Since it was toast anyway, I decided to go Neanderthal on it and just hacked the rim off using some metal sheers.



This gave me a more direct line to smack the pin but it absolutely refused to budge, even after I applied some careful heat to it (not enough to melt the babbitt in the first main)

So...I drilled it out.



Dern old cars. I've lost track of how many times things that should take minutes, end up taking an hour or more when working on antiques.

Of course, the pulley from hell is still not relenting. The pulley hub is still stubbornly holding on to the end of the crankshaft. I may have to cut it off as well.

(Message edited by rustyfords on July 08, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 04:16 pm:

Don, I re-read your post of this morning at 0732. You stated you “need the structure of the magneto to sling oil around”. You probably know the magneto consists of 2 basic components: one is the ‘field coil’ of 16 insulation wrapped copper spools bolted to the block and the other is the 16 magnets fastened to the flywheel. These magnets exist to splash oil throughout the engine. Tolerances given above are Ford’s recommendation. I like to narrow the range to .028 and .032. I admire that you want to experience the magneto engine operation. It’s a pain in the butt to later-on remove the engine and separate the pan so take a little time to inspect triple gear bushings and the 25 clutch discs while you have the tranny off. I have plenty of good original crank pullies. Would be glad to send you one if needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 05:13 pm:

Thank you George. I'll send you a PM about the pulley.

As for this engine, all I really want it to do is to give me a mobile Model T for a year or two. By then, I'll have my T's original engine rebuilt professionally and placed back in the car.

If this "temporary engine" is still running, I plan to find a guy resurrecting a non-running T and give it to him. The generosity and willingness to help, that I've experienced in the Model T community is far greater than I've experienced in all other branches of the old car world, combined. And...I plan to do my part to keep that spirit going by giving this engine away.

(Message edited by rustyfords on July 08, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daren Carlson on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 05:32 pm:

Bought a 360 Dodge engine. I was told it leaked oil. Leaked oil was a understatement. The worst was the rear pan seal that was loaded up with RTV to the point it actually squished out of place when the pan was installed. Had to completely disassemble a Lycoming aircraft engine and clean the RTV from everywhere there was a gasket plus the case halves. Leave your RTV in your tool box or better yet leave it at the store.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 05:39 pm:

I agree Daren.

The guy I bought this engine from had different ideas however...almost a love affair with the stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 05:46 pm:

From looking at the pictures, your magneto coils are losing insulation. This is what I suspect happened. The band washers were picked up by the magnets and hit the magneto coils. That is very likely what also caused the heads of the brass screws to break off. You need to get the book from the club "Electrical System" It tells you step by step details on how to rebuild the magneto. You need to check the magnets for cracks and recharge them. You should also re-wind or replace with rewound magneto coil ring. Replace the brass screws and if the starter ring gear looks worn replace it at this time. Then install the magnets with equal height from the flywheel and when you install the flywheel measure the clearance between the magnets and the coil poles. This is a lot of work, but the only way you can make the magneto work and keep it from causing further damage to the car. You could put slingers on the flywheel and leave the magnets off. Then you would need an e timer or tru-fire to run your ignition system or replace it with a distributor.
I would recommend you rebuild the engine while it is apart. Those are the old cast iron pistons and very likely the cylinders and rings are quite worn. Check every thing out and save a lot of future work.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C west central, MN on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 06:02 pm:

Good grief man, what a perfect job of drilling that pin!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 06:10 pm:

Thanks for the info Norm.

As for rebuilding this engine...it's my car's original engine that will get rebuilt. The whole purpose behind this one is to have something cheap that I can quickly install in my car for a year or two to make it a runner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 08, 2018 - 06:11 pm:

Duey...

Ha! I was actually kind of miffed at myself for veering off as much as I did!


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