Unleaded fuel

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Unleaded fuel
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By geoffrey mark on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 03:29 am:

Just wondering what fuel people use , ir regular unleaded or is adatives required ? Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 05:43 am:

Right out of the pump. Don't complicate things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 07:03 am:

They didn't start adding lead to gas until the mid 1920's. So, it goes without saying that Model T's weren't designed to need the stuff.

Straight up regular gas is fine....non-alcohol gas if you can find it near you (it's hard to do in a big metro area).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Loftfield on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 07:03 am:

GM/Ethyl Corporation did not put lead into fuel until 1924, ergo all cars prior to 1924 were designed to run on unleaded fuel. Since Mr. Ford was always late in making changes, essentially all Model T's will run just fine on unleaded fuel. What I try to avoid, maybe foolishly, I don't know, is ethanol in the gas I put into my T's. I am certain that the T will accommodate the alcohol, I just don't like the way alcohol encourages water to dissolve into the fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 08:42 am:

Whatever costs least. 10% ethanol is fine if you don't let it sit for months. I drive often enough to use it up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 08:49 am:

History is bunk.

Early Gasoline was purer, a relative term, than modern gasoline. The early gasoline used in the Model T's, at the time of production, did not contain an antiknock additive or , if you wish lead additive. The early gasoline generally had an octane of 70.

Of course, gasoline could be souped-up by adding an acid, ether, benzene...but that is for another day... Go Dodge Brothers -- inventors of the Model T Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire (La Florida!) on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 08:50 am:

Geoffrey: It is not the fuel that runs through the system, it's the fuel that sits in the system that causes problems so drive it. How about some pictures of the roads you drive on in Northern Ireland, I bet you have some dandy "T" roads to drive on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 09:41 am:

The ability of alcohol in gas to absorb water is a benefit, I still can not understand why people fear gasohol because of its ability to absorb water, but they will ad a product called "Heat" to their gas tank when they have water in the tank. The only way you can get water in your gasohol is if it is already in the tank. The real problem with gasohol is it seems to cause the gasoline to breakdown faster and leave what looks like alkali deposits in the tank and fuel system. I try to run at least one tank of gasohol through all my vehicles each year to purge any water in the tank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 11:09 am:

When you drive the car water can get into the tank through the air vent hole in the cap. On a humid day the air is full of water. That is one cause of water in the gas. It can even get through when you are not driving due to changes in atmospheric pressure. You have probably noticed how your windows get wet on a cold day? It is caused by water in the atmosphere which condenses when it cools off. Driving is one way to keep the water in the gas low. Another is to drain the sediment bowl from time to time. Since water is heavier than gasoline, it will settle to the bottom and be the first to reach the bowl.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 11:14 am:

No hard and fast rule for "gasohol" taking on ambient humidity. Gustaf, like myself, hails from the high and dry climate of southern Idaho where the humidity is very low year 'round. This morning it's 43% and that's before the dew has burned off. Other regions that experience high humidity normally will have a different result.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 12:28 pm:

I'm with Steve. If you drive regularly, there is no need to fear ethanol mix. If your car tends to sit for several weeks between fill-ups, then ethanol free gas is a better alternative. This modern gas just doesn't have the shelf life of the older gas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Erfert on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 12:29 pm:

I remember in the late 60's or early 70's when we added a water injector to get better gas milage. It worked ...... Our vehicles ran better in the rain too. Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 07:16 pm:

Good grief! George, 'History is Bunk'
Only when you mess with it!
Early gas was purer! 70 octane? and Dodge Brothers-- inventors of the Model T Ford??

What are you on man?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 07:57 pm:

I drive my T alot, in a good week a tank or two go into it.

I try to use only non oxygenated fuel. If you find the right station, it often does not cost much more, but I found I have a lot more power.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 08:31 pm:

A little bit of info regarding "ethanol free" gas....

On one of the major highways headed out of the Houston metro, there's a gas station advertising "ethanol free" gasoline. Several people I know make the trek there occasionally to fill up 5 gallon cans with gas to use in their lawn equipment....to avoid the use of alcohol in their gas.

Since I have access to gas chromatographs and other laboratory analysis equipment, I gathered a sample of this "ethanol free" gas for testing and, well....tested it.

Yes...it was "ethanol free".

No...it wasn't alcohol free.

It had methanol in it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 08:31 pm:

A car will run on old gas, maybe not as well, but it will run. :-)
Early gas was cut with kerosene, something like in the 40-60% range in the T era and later, that is not pure. You think things can be a mess now! I have seen enough to know even gas from before modern gas, the leavings for sure were not pretty. The gunk left behind from evaporating gas is not fun to clean up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim R. Wynn on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 10:21 pm:

You guys are all missing the point. Put magnets around the fuel line or manifold to line up the water and gas molecules in the right polarity and all will be well with the world. Just my 2 cents.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 11:44 pm:

And don't forget the chain dangling on the ground to drain off the excess positrons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 12:43 am:

Rich is right, around here we complain when the humidity gets above 15%, but still the only way enough water can get into a gas tank for gasohol to be able to absorb enough to cause separation is to leave the cap off in a rainstorm with the top down and the seat up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 12:47 am:

By the way Mr. Jelf (all teachers are addressed Mr. or Mrs.) we always drug a chain on our combine to do just that, but a threshing machine can create a lot of static electricity that can cause a spark and fire, in theory. although it is more likely that the red hot exhaust and chaff is the real culprit. we never had a combine or grain field fire and I can not say the same for many neighbors.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Story on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 08:42 am:

One of my neighbors drove a tractor from northern Iowa to southern Mo. I said you wore out your rear tires didn't you. He said Nope I drug a chain. Never heard of this before, have you?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 09:24 am:

In the forties you always saw tanker trucks that carried gasoline dragging a piece of chain. It was supposed to prevent static electricity building up from the gas sloshing around. But dragging chains weren't used on cars, which had gasoline sloshing around in their tanks. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 09:31 am:

Tanker trucks still use precautions against static electricity. Aircraft are also always grounded before refueling to avoid a spark, and if you read the instructions in most service stations, you are supposed to remove any gas can from a vehicle, especially if you have a plastic liner in your pickup bed and set it on the ground before filling it. I always touch a metal post before putting fuel in my vehicles to discharge any static electricity. While the chance of fire is very slight, it is a good idea to take precautions, some people do not and some morons even will suck on a lit cigarette while gassing an automobile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 09:45 am:

I learned about hauling gasoline from Rich Eagle - there's the possibility of static build up as gasoline pours from the fill spout into the tank truck at the bulk plant. The truck dragged a chain to ground the tank and truck frame, and "jumper cables" we're attached to the spout and tank. You used to see fuel trucks dragging a chain but I haven't seen that in a long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Codman on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:37 am:

To Gustaf - Sorry, but you are incorrect about H20 absorption. My T lives in a leak-free garage, it is never left with the gas cap off, and part of my standard operating procedure is to drain a sample out of the firewall-mounted sediment bowl. I always - repeat, always - get a few drops of water in the fuel sample.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 11:47 am:

To answer the original question; I use what ever comes out of the pump that is being sold as regular and have not had any seat or valve issues running it in my T here in Oregon. (I have new valves installed and but no seat inserts)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Juhl on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 12:08 pm:

"Ethanol gasoline is hygroscopic (will absorb water) and can absorb 50 times more water than conventional non-alcohol gasoline. - Phase separation occurs in E10 gas, when only 0.5% water or 3.8 teaspoons water per gallon of fuel is absorbed." If you drive your car regularly, no problem. If you let it sit for awhile in a humid climate you may end up with water and crud in the bottom of your tank. There are additives that help but if you can find true alcohol-free gas that would be best if your car sits a lot. Aircraft have drains at the low points of the fuel system and it is not unusual to drain a little water from a plane that has been sitting, and avgas is alcohol free. I've run avgas in some of my old vehicles without problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 01:02 pm:

The moisture will get into the tank regardless of what type gasoline is in it. If it's alcohol free, then the moisture settles out in the low spots to be drained off. If the gasoline has alcohol in it, the moisture will be absorbed by the alcohol, up until the point it will not absorb any more. The fact that the gasoline has alcohol in it doesn't make it suck all the moisture out of the garage. It just has the potential to absorb it if it is introduced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 01:31 pm:

Now Hal, you're going to cause problems if you continue to post factual statements here. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry & Sharon Miller, Westminster, CO on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 02:01 pm:

I have no connection with this product but I wanted to show a great example of how to get ethanol out of gasoline. Yes, YOU CAN DO IT. This rig is one of the better ones I have seen and using the food coloring makes things very clear to see. I'm sure a person can build something very much like this if they want to get rid of ethanol in their gasoline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO1hsaxaMXo

Nice You Tube video.

Good Luck,
Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 02:30 pm:

John Codman, I did not say that you will not get water in the gas tank, I said that you will not get a significant amount. Condensation is a real thing, but that amount of water that can enter a tank is so small that you will only see a few drops, many people have said that the alcohol with adsorb water and you will get a separation. According to Tim Juhl, it takes 3.8 teaspoons per gallon, I always thought it was a bit more, but still 3,8 teaspoons is quite a lot of water. Gasohol can not be blamed for water in a fuel system because if you have enough water in you tank to cause separation of the alcohol, you are going to have an engine failure long before separation because 3.8 teaspoons of water is going to fill the carburetor bowl and kill the engine. The solution to the problem of having water in the gas tank is to add a product called "Heat" or something like it. "Heat is alcohol and does the same thing that gasohol will do with out adding anything to the tank. One of the great benefits of using gasohol on a regular basis is that it removes any water in the fuel system so it does not sit in the bottom of the tank and rust through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 03:49 pm:

Yeah. What HE said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 05:20 pm:

For as long as I can remember we have used methylated spirits, even in over head and under ground storage tanks to adsorb water from petrol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 05:23 pm:

Actually, what Hal said was more concise and understandable, so there!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Dizer on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 08:36 pm:

First, octane is simply the fuels ability to resist spark knock. The higher the octane, the higher the compression and spark advance can be used. T's don't need much!

The problem with alcohol is that the hydroscopic nature makes the moisture stay suspended in the gas, and cause damage to the fuel systems that are not designed for them. It can cause rust in steel parts, and anything with an aluminum based carburetor and fuel pump, it will cause extreme corrosion inside! The other effect that gas companies fail to mention is that alcohol has about 10% less heat energy, measured in btu's, than gasoline, so your fuel mileage will drop as well! The plus side for modern cars is that it makes the emissions lower, and easier to clean and control. Have you noticed how many new cars have plastic fuel tanks? It's not just for weight reduction, they don't rust from the moisture! Modern cars tanks and fuel systems are sealed, so no vapors can escape, and air can't get in, limiting water absorption! Alcohol also does raise the octane rating, meaning less other additives. Alcohol takes far more energy in the form of electricity, and huge amounts of water to produce it, than gasoline. Just my two cents, too!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 09:34 pm:

So if you remember your history (History is bunk), early processing of petroleum was to refine and produce kerosene. A by product of kerosene production was was gasoline. Produced at a time when there was no concept of mixing it with special additives. Really until the need for a better fuel for the internal combustion engine gasoline was a throwaway product.

But with the advent of a low compression motor, (not the diesel or heavy fuel engine) the by product of kerosene distillation gasoline was finding a new use. And its octane was low.

Early gasoline was comprised of hexane, heptane, and pentane. With just these three chemicals it was pure.

As for fuels for early cars an expert in 1913 stated that there would be no need to use alcohol for automobile fuel, in any form. (Thatís that!
John Francis and Horace Elgin Dodge. (aka Dodge Brothers Inventors of the..........)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 09:22 am:

Actually George, the Dodge brothers did not invent the Model T, it was not an invention but a refinement of a previous invention, they designed and built it while employed by Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 09:52 am:

Gustaf,

You make a very good point. Most of the things we enjoy in the modern world were not "invented", but are the result of a long string of refinements as well as improvements in the method of production. "Inventions" are a very limited list of things developed that previously did not exist.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 05:33 pm:

OK,
Tell me while Dodge brothers worked on contract orders in casting and machining in their own factory for Ford, what did they design for Henry Fords Model T??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 06:41 pm:

According to the John Dodge obit the Dodge Brothers built the Ford business in the early years. Their manufacturing process was more precise than that of Henry. John Dodge passed in 1920.

So, (the) "Dodge brothers did not invent the Model T, it was not an invention but a refinement of a previous invention, they designed and built it while employed by Ford" but Dodge Brothers had better quality control than Henry, and was able to achieve a better product... You have to be fair, if it was not for the Dodge Brothers, Henry and the Model T would have been a very short event in ...oh what is it called history. The Bunk History...








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 07:18 pm:

George.
It clearly states that the dodge Brothers built Ford parts to Henry's design.

Also that the brothers had never been employed by Ford but that Ford was a 'Customer'


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 09:13 pm:

To me, the most striking thing about the Dodge obituary is its competent English.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 10:30 pm:

Mr. Jelf,
From my experience reading letters from soldiers of WWI, good English (German and every other language) was the norm at that time, not the exceptions as it is now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Dizer on Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 04:50 am:

Talk about thread drift, this one sure has gotten off the subject!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 09:04 am:

Yes, there was a bit of drifting in this thread. But did anyone (ak - you) learn anything?

I did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 09:05 am:

William, the first 4 replies answered the question rather thoroughly, everything after that is just frosting on the cake, and the more flavours the better.


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