09 'No rivet' axle needs major repair

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: 09 'No rivet' axle needs major repair
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:24 am:

Here's the axle off my Aug 09. It locked solid on me back in the 80s and it's been siting in the shed waiting for me to fix it. Any thoughts on making a good job on it would be welcome.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:26 am:

more photos




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 01:31 pm:

Hello Jem:
The driveshaft collar being brazed together, I would reassemble this with weld for maximum strength. A fixture will be needed to maintain the collar positions as repairs are being conducted. I recommend any later pinion housing with increased inlet boss diamter for accurate positioning of the collar halves.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 01:57 pm:

After ensuring the axle housings are straight, I would bolt them together and create a fixture where you drop through a shaft through from one side to the other (essentially taking the place of the axles) and then come off the center with a perpendicular piece to project through the pinion hole. Now you have something around which you can build to maintain things as square-and-parallel while you reverse the damage and put the pieces back in place. It would be a starting point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 03:59 pm:

My opinion. And I know some people will disagree with this. IF it was brazed before? I would braze it again. Number ONE reason for this, is that proper welding CANNOT be done over braze without grinding and cutting enough to remove one hundred percent ALL brass or other copper based material. The amount of welding required to replace all that removed metal will likely not be any stronger than a good brazing job.
Grinding out some area for "V"s will be needed. Careful reshaping of damaged parts and jigs to hold straight and center are required. Lots of measuring and rechecking is a MUST!
Except for serious cracking and significant separation, it doesn't appear to be in very bad shape. If it were mine? I wouldn't be afraid to fix it myself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 04:54 pm:

I am trying to imagine what would have caused this damage. If you go at this with reversing the sequence of catastrophic events in mind, it may yield clues to how you go about the fix. I would probably set this up on a surface plate to get the case halves flat and square, and then proceed with something along the lines of Walter's suggestions.

I would be interested to see how you do it!

Wow. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 05:02 pm:

I am with Wayne on this, brazing is a must. Bolting both sections together is also a good plan for proper alignment. If you take a good any year set of rear end housings and what you have to a good machinest, he should be able to restore the surface for the threaded pinion housing insert and braze it in. There are lots of alignment things to do but all should be possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Pharis on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 05:07 pm:

I’m no expert when it comes to the ‘09-‘10 specifics... but isn’t the entire “bell” section formed from the same steel as the axle tube? And is the collar that the driveline bolts to a separate piece that was brazed in? If this is the case...

• Clean up the housing
• Straighten the snout area if has been bent/distorted
• Machine out the old collar remnants and excess brass
• Make a new collar
• Reassemble as original


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 05:21 pm:

I like Bill's idea of working out why. A lot of other stuff in my life back then stopped me from doing that.

This has the babbit inner brgs, if they are worn to the extent that the crown wheel & pinion got totally misaligned and locked, that would have ripped it all apart. It was a catastrophic event, the radius rods are banana shaped. Or did one of those brazed-in sections pull away suddenly? It happened at slow walking pace but we were all thrown forward out of our seats.

I like Walter's jig concept and agree with Wayne on the problems of welding after brazing. I need to clean the housings and do some measuring. As if I didn't have enough projects! Now I'm retired I can't understand how I ever found time to go to work


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 05:34 pm:

3 hole collars are shot. You will need to turn those new. I hear what Wayne is saying about cleaning off the brass, but you need to do that regardless of how you replace the collars. Any way you do it, you are going to loose additional metal in the process. I would have my best welder TIG this with nickel/cadmium rod. If you have welded on one of the early pans, then you know why.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 06:12 pm:

I vote with Kevin. You will need to make a right angle jig to accurately position the driveshaft collar off the axle housing holes. Use the jig to locate the driveshaft collar and braze in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 08:11 pm:

Given the obvious weakness of the original design, I would say that a good hard stomp on the brake pedal, with a fully loaded car, would produce that damage. Thanks for posting the pictures. It's really interesting to see how the early stuff was made!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:15 pm:

Here is an off the wall idea: Find a donor axle housing, it could be 1915 or later and slice off about an inch off the driveshaft end. Do the same less the saw blade thickness off your 1909 housing. Braze or weld the parts back together using the bell housing holes for alignment. You could experiment on a junk axle housing and develop your technique.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:22 pm:

Jem, most of those no rivet rear ends failed because the Babbitt drive shaft wore allowing the pinion gear to skip a tooth. I think you are going to make a new collar. It's hard to get rid of that old brass. I'd recommend you contact Dennis Oley in Redding, CA. He has made that repair before. I'll send you his contact info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Pharis on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 12:11 am:

I don’t want to sound like I’m volunteering... but making the collar and repairing the housing looks like a piece of cake to me. Also, I wouldn’t bother with any “alternative” fixes, the housing is special enough to warrant being repaired properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 02:31 am:

Thanks gents, lots of inspiring help. I remember seeing (probably here) a drawing from the Benson Ford of a brace to stop the torque tube wagging the nose, also the later 6 rivets had a nose reinforcement. Years of braking & acceleration have clearly weakened the brazed joint.

I will post photos after I clean it up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 05:14 am:

Hello Jem:
Pinion position appeared sloppy on mine where the collar id measured 2.645 and torque tube pilot boss is 2.625. I had to make the 6 special studs anyway, so I added a bushing diameter to each, just below the tube flange. Torque tube now fits together very tight...no potential for misalignment.

I built the torque tube with a double row angular contact ball bearing instead of the OEM bushing, this also with the intention of positively insuring the pinion position. Maybe overkill, but decided to be too precise rather than risk alignment movement.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 01:19 pm:

Hello Jem:
Pinion position appeared sloppy on mine where the collar id measured 2.645 and torque tube pilot boss is 2.625. I had to make the 6 special studs anyway, so I added a bushing diameter to each, just below the tube flange. Torque tube now fits together very tight...no potential for misalignment.

I built the torque tube with a double row angular contact ball bearing instead of the OEM bushing, this also with the intention of insuring the pinion position. Maybe overkill, but elected to err on the side of caution.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 01:22 pm:

Pardon the double post...I guess I stutter when I type.
SR


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 07:36 am:

Wayne is 100% correct. Once brazed, re braze.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 09:55 am:

Could a new casting be done? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Sunday, July 15, 2018 - 09:58 am:

A new part can easily be machined and brazed in. I probably would finish after it was brazed in.
Jem More photos of your car please. Walter, Is your 11 finished, more photos please.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, July 16, 2018 - 08:06 am:

Jem

I had a simular problem with my 09 some years ago. one side was just as damaged as yours. They weld very easily and I wouldn't let the brazing stop you from trying. I found very little brazing in mine.

I simply built it all up with mig weld and had it machined and file finished the outside to a simular finish to the good one.

All I could find at the time were 3 right housings, so I made this one into a left housing.

This is what is started with:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, July 16, 2018 - 08:12 am:

Jem

Mine also required a bit of straightening before welding and minor adjustments after

Here are some photos of the finished machine work and unfinished lip.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, July 16, 2018 - 08:18 am:

Jem

Here are some photos of the finished centre:






Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Monday, July 16, 2018 - 01:05 pm:

I have worse center sections like that. I want to re-create the whole thing with.
Except mine were cut off like jackstands too!
I've seen threads about truing them up in a lathe.
Has anyone here done that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Monday, July 16, 2018 - 05:18 pm:

Thanks Mark. You sent me a lot of info back when I originally had the problem, I printed it off and should still have it in my (disorganized) archive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - 07:20 am:

Here is how I trued them. A simple frame I welded up.

Made some plugs with centres in the lathe for each end (Make sure to drill some sort of hole beside the centre of each plug so you can knock them out after your finished).

Used a surface gauge to find the out of true.

Used tiny "red" heat shrinks and a wet rag to bend the housings. Too much heat will have very little affect in moving the housings.

The mating surface may need some heat and hammer work.

Mark





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