EXTREME Overheating

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: EXTREME Overheating
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 09:16 pm:

Hi guys,

Got a bit of an issue with my 1927.

It was running great, no overheating, etc a week ago. I was driving it around the yard, all good. Then a tire blew and it's been out of commission until tonight.

Tried starting it on one turn open. Wouldn't "catch", so I opened it to 1 1/2. It was popping a little and running a bit rough so I had to open it to 2. Anything above that and it dies. Throttle down a few clicks and spark about half way ish down for idle. Put foot on brake and put it in neutral. Throttle up a little more and step it into low. Slowly go down the driveway in low. Brake. Take the turn, and start moving the throttle down. Once I started going faster, put throttle up and moved the lever forward, let foot up, throttle back down. Engine was racing and had high rpm. Loss of power. Almost a neutral or a low low. Shifted back into low, made my way to a side street. At this point, the exhaust manifold and exhaust were red and the nut was rotating off! Quickly shut it off. No steam really from radiator, I took off the cap and a small small amount of steam. Walked home to grab my wrench and tightened it back up. Switch to battery, start it. Go into low and manage to get home. The exhaust was red once more when I got home. About a minute away, so pretty short distance.

Unsure of what to do. It sounds like the spark is retarded too much, as there's no way it's too lean since it dies past 2 turns. I timed it a couple of times.. I don't see how timing could be that much off to make it over heat so much.

I did have an issue last time with it not starting unless opened 4 turns from the carb having a blockage. I cleaned it out and all was good. I have not changed anything besides switching tubes and tires.

Rebuilt carb by Russ, rebuilt coils by Ron. All new wiring. Good battery... Lights were on if it makes a difference. New exhaust and manifold with copper rings and glands, yes, they are fully seated and everything tight. Good (ish) radiator. Cleaned. New gas line. It is a couple of inches away from the exhaust the whole way and then climbs up to the carb since the tank is mounted so far back (speedster). No high spots. Tank half full. Sediment bulb new and open.

Don't know what could be going wrong... But it seems like it's something simple. Just don't know what.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 09:21 pm:

Reverse works great too, was reading a couple related posts that asked if it was working.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Rosenfelder on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 09:28 pm:

My exhaust manifold ran red once. The manifold clamps were tight, but the something was not seated. I think I had leaks at both manifolds. Realigned things, and it ran better, and no read hot manifold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:01 pm:

Just a guess but i think you need to pull the spark all the way down after starting? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:30 pm:

It was hfway down. I think I checked m timing tomorrow morning.sounding like it's off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:50 pm:

I think you're not using that spark lever correctly for one thing. Perhaps some one can post the driving diagram for correct useage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 10:56 pm:

I don't think it has anything to do with were the spark lever is set. You are runnin lean and have to open the spray needle to richen up the mixture because your intake is not sealing.
THAT is the first place I would look. Take it off and install with out the copper crush rings, make sure it is seating all the way down to the block with just the gland rings installed. If it is not, file a little of the rings till it does. At this point I would go ahead and reuse the copper rings, they should be ok.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 12:39 am:

To add a bit to what Mark G. said, before taking intake manifold off, I think I'd start the engine and make certain that there is indeed an intake manifold leak, and just where that leak is occurring. Do this by by spraying something like WD-40 or something around areas where intake manifold should be sealed by gasket or crush rings, and listen for change in speed of engine which would indicate a leak. Be careful of possible fire if the exhaust manifold gets as hot as you say during this test. FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 04:34 am:

This does sound like a combination of retarded timing and lean fuel. Even the best carburetor can sometimes get messed up quickly by a few flecks of rust from the gasoline tank or bad gas from a cheap and dirty station or gasoline can.
Check all those things first.
Another possibility, could be a blown head gasket. Seen that a few times.

The worst over heater I ever saw was one of my Ts about thirty years ago had a crack in the combustion dome of the cylinder head. It was fine the first few weeks I had it running (I think rust had sealed an old crack I was not aware of). Suddenly, it began getting too hot, and fairly quickly. It took about fifteen miles of short local driving to go from running hot but drivable to the point that it could not be driven even one mile. In one more day, I let it sit overnight, cold start, and it was a full raging boil after one short trip around the block.
I pulled the head, and found the cracked dome. Replaced the head with a good one and the car was fine for several years till I sold it.
I figured the crack had opened up, and once it began leaking, every explosion pushed the cracked dome open and blew hot flame directly into the cooling water. About like using an acetylene torch to boil a pail of water.

I doubt that is your problem. But if timing and fuel mixture don't fix it? You may want to check the head and gasket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 07:21 am:

Guys, I am following the T lever position diagram...

Keep in mind this was running perfectly a week ago.

Manifolds have been reseated

Again, there's just no way it's running lean if I can't open it up more than 2 or 2 1/2 turns without killing it.

Last week when it started but only with mixture open to 4 turns and it was red and running rough like now. The carburator was clogged. I guess I will take it off and blow it out again and see if that fixes it. And I'll check the timing again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 07:23 am:

My money is on too lean a mixture. You used to have to run at 4 turns open because of a fuel blockage? You cleaned it up and then it ran at 1 turn open, but now you have to run it at 2 turns open? Sounds like more crud in the system has turned loose and gotten into somewhere and causing another blockage. I don't work on these things for a living, so I haven't seen it all, but in my experience, 2 turns open is way more open than it ought to have to be. Mine both run at less than 1 turn open except for starting, when I richen by 1/2 a turn.

If you are not sure of your timing, by all means check it. It needs to be right, but my money is still on a lean mixture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 07:47 am:

You said, "...moved the lever forward, let foot up, throttle back down. Engine was racing and had high rpm. Loss of power. Almost a neutral or a low low."

Looks to me as if your high speed clutch is slipping badly.

Also looks like your carb is clogged again. Clean it and check your gas tank. I agree with HAL, in his post above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 08:08 am:

Thanks guys, figured that. Gas tank had some little stuff you could hear when shaken, and I couldn't get it out. Figured the sediment screen would have caught most of it. I'll blow out the carb again and see.

Jerry, is the slipping clutch I see on other posts regarding adjustments with having to be set for 13/16 the one I need to adjust for high gear?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 08:43 am:

John,

Yes, that's the one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 09:34 am:

Great. Thanks jerry.

Just blew out the carb and will try to start it with 1 turn open. Also took off the bulb screen just for the sake of it. All clean. That's how it started last week when I had to clean it out, it would start right up on 1 turn, not 2 like I've had to do yesterday. I'll drive down the street and test out high again before adjusting anything, just a short distance to see if it was because of the clog or something.

I did empty out the bulb from the petcock and got a clear lid to drain some gas into. Alot of little silvery particles drained out. Also one of the neoprene seals was ripped up a little. Probably could have clogged it if a little piece came off. Took it out and trimmed it up a little. Fuel flow nice and strong now (and it was before too).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 09:47 am:

No luck. Will not start on anywhere from 1 - 1 1/2, so it sounds like it's still got an issue somewhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 10:02 am:

Here is a photo of one of the plugs. Does this hint at any issues?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 10:09 am:

The color looks like the plug is firing and the mixture is reasonably close.

What brand plug is that? I'm not used to seeing so much of the center electrode exposed without support from the ceramic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry & Sharon Miller, Westminster, CO on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 10:09 am:

John,

If there was crud in the fuel tank, some of it could be blocking the outlet port and not letting gas out of the tank. This crud would not get into the sediment bulb if it were large pieces and/or flakes of rust/corrosion. You could open the carb. bowl drain and check the amount of fuel flow or take the fuel line off to check the flow.

Good Luck,
Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 10:45 am:

Mark, it's a Motorcraft F11. Unsure on how old, came with the car when I got it, and it had been sitting in a barn. 70s? 80s?

I agree. I compared it to the diagrams. It looks a little bit lean, but close.

So to explain further, after I blew it out and tried to start at a 1 1/2 turns open, it starts for a second and quits. Just like how it did last week when it ran almost exactly like this. Blowing it out though didn't change anything like last time.

Took off the carb and opened it up.

Sediment bowl has a couple "piles" of loose silvery particles. Not good. The stuff I found coming out of the sediment bulb it appears. Not sure how clean the sediment bowl is supposed to be normally? A thin coating of this slush covering the bottom. Going to clean it all out. Also took off the float and valve and am going to clean out the jet. What, just run some string through and see if anything sticks?

Terry, have checked flow a bunch of times. All good and strong from the tank out of the petcock itself, from the end of the line by the carb, and from out of the carb itself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 11:01 am:

Do you have anyone close to you that could put "other" eyes on it that might see something you are missing? If the carb was rebuilt by Russ I would say it should be ok and as you have cleaned it out several times I would still go with there is a vacuum leak from gasket missing or not sealing. If you can, check the compression and maybe timing too. Even at a low reading like 35 it should run and not need the spray needle open that far.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 11:27 am:

I think it's a carburetor problem. Also you might have a problem with the high gear clutch if it won't run in high. However, if the engine is racing it might be the clutch slipping. The clutch works better if you push the gas all the way up when you shift then pull down after the clutch is engaged. Your red manifold indicates the gas is burning after it goes out the exhaust into the manifold. This happens when you give it a lot of gas with the spark retarded. As the engine speeds up, the unburnt fuel goes out the exhaust valve and burns inside the manifold.
This is what I think is wrong. Something is impeding the flow of fuel. You need to take a large gas can and take off the fuel line at the carburetor. turn on the fuel valve at the sediment bulb and then watch the flow of gas until the tank is empty or the gas can is full. It should flow freely as long as the valve is open. If you open it for just a few seconds, you might see flow but it will slow down or stop if something is plugged. Once you are sure the gas is flowing freely, re-connect the fuel line at the carburetor and repeat the same test with the petcock open at the base of the carburetor. If the flow slows or stops, your float valve is plugged or the float is stuck closed.
Note, you can use a funnel with a coffee filter to strain the gas and pour it back into the tank. Check the filter to see if any dirt has been caught in it. It only takes a very small particle to clog the float valve or the carburetor jet.
If everything in the carburetor is correct, you should only need to open the richness adjustment about 1/2 to 1 turn for starting and then as soon as it starts, re adjust to run smoothly and when it is warmed up, it should be adjusted again. After that, as long as you keep driving it you shouldn't need any more adjustment. Two things can cause the manifold to run hot. 1. retarded spark. 2. lean fuel mixture. I am not ruling out a leak in the intake manifold, but it is strange for that to happen after it was running fine a week before.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 11:53 am:

Mark, sadly I don't think so.

Norman, thank you for the detailed response. Everyone I have talked to has said slipping clutch and to adjust the fingers. I'll do so once I get this running again.

I have checked, as said fuel flow numerous times. It runs strong. It does not stop or flow taper off. There are no clogs there. I am pretty sure this is a clogged carb issue. I have it apart and have blown it out very well this time. If this fixes it, the chunk of dirt or whatever that was lodged in there last time settled over the past week and clogged it again.

Have blown out all of the openings with the valves and everything removed. Hopefully this solves my problems.

I don't think spark is the issue here. I've checked the timing again, coils start to spark right after pin is horizontal and spark is brought to 1/2 to 3/4 of the way down when I was driving. Nothing fixed it running hot and needing to open it 2 or more turns. It really sounds like a carb issue. It's getting that little bit of fuel that gets past the clog, and uses it up right as it attempts to start. When I open the mixture up, the space between the needle and seat opens up allowing more fuel to get past the clog, but still not enough to make it run normal without opening it a bunch more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Annaian - Moultonborough NH on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 12:57 pm:

Ok folks.

Reinstalled the cleaned out carb. Opened to 1 1/2, choked. Nothing opened it just a little bit more, and put down the throttle some more and it sprang to life again. Hopped off and let it run for 10 minutes at idle. No more red manifold or exhaust that I could see. It is daylight though, I'll run it again tonight to see if I see any red. Radiator was steaming a bit, but I overfilled it since it has a small leak still. I think the problem has been solved. Clogged carburator yet again...

Now onto adjusting high gear later today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry & Sharon Miller, Westminster, CO on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 01:56 pm:

John,

Thanks for the update. We all love to hear a story with a good ending. Glad you got it started and it ran well.

Good Luck with your clutch adjusting.

Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 09:31 pm:

Fantastic! Thanks for the update. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Friday, July 13, 2018 - 10:41 pm:

You mentioned silvery particles in the sediment bulb. I bought a new gas tank around 1994. Sometime in 2007? or so I started getting silver particles. I think maybe the ethanol gas did something. I don't know if there was some zinc from galvanizing it inside or what but if I let the car sit for a week or 2 I would have to run a wire up through the sediment bowl to unclog it. The carburetor i had had a grose jet and it would stick because of that stuff too. I finally removed the tank and cleaned it and the sediment bulb and haven't had that problem since. It was fine as long as I started it every day, but after a week then I had to work on it to get fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 02:30 am:

Several years ago,on a short 100 mile tour with the old car club, mine the oldest, my 23 died in the road. I had spark,fuel ran out of the carb who l opened the drain,but she would only give weak pops. I opened the needle 4 turns to get it going again. I opened it a lot more until l it died, then closed it back to 1.5 turns and it ran well the rest of the day, I suspect crud from the tank plugged the jet And opening it cleared it and allowed it to flush through. I've a new tank now.


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