OT...1908 Lambert. Need any information that can be found.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: OT...1908 Lambert. Need any information that can be found.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 06:34 am:

If anyone out there has any information or better yet pictures of a 1908 Lambert it would greatly help with its restoration. For example the original shape of the hood, etc. Thank you!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 06:59 am:

Don,
Great car!

I'all find a little original info...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 07:13 am:

Don,
I'm not sure how one gets in the back seat with the rear opening doors on your car? This ad listed as a 1908 looks similar otherwise.....

http://www.earlyamericanautomobiles.com/advertising10.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 07:21 am:

Looks like one 1908 book is available in an Indiana library, and two for sale:

https://books.google.com/books?id=YjLDswEACAAJ&dq=lambert+1908+automobile&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWrPm_xq3cAhVIiqwKHdPgC30Q6AEIKjAB




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Kuhnash Southeastern Ohio on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 07:43 am:

If you are a member of AACA, you can contact the library. That is a great resource.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 07:46 am:

1907 description in "Cycle and Automobile" magazine:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MnTPHt_y9qIC&pg=RA5-PA83&dq=lambert+1907+autom obile&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF-Zq6zK3cAhVR3VMKHaOoAgEQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=lambe rt%201907%20automobile&f=false


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Dorholt - Mpls, MN on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 08:07 am:

Dan, I was down there and saw these cars.
A friend bought the Buick Model F they had.
All I thought was these cars need to get out of this basement!
Good luck with the project thats a great one!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 08:26 am:

Dean I won't be doing the resto on this one. Its way out of my league. A friend will be receiving it shortly and he really needs the details of the hood and splash aprons. They will be made from scratch.

Rob thank you for the book info. It may be a required purchase. I have googled the car but was hoping to get some closer detail on the body parts.

Gotta love the way you guys jump in to help. I can't think of any other group so willing to take the time for others. Thank you all !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 09:27 am:

The estate of Terry Lambert is selling some Lambert and other cars on the HCCA classifieds, there might be some useful pictures there.

https://www.hcca.org/classifieds.php?cars


pic1

pic2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 10:52 am:

Mark its weird that the same parts are missing on that one also. Thanks for the posting. I was just informed that the splash aprons are not a problem but the hood is still a mystery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 11:02 am:

Don - it's not weird because it appears to be the same car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 11:03 am:

Don arn't the car at top and Marks post the same car?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 11:10 am:

Yes, they are the same car.

Especially note the non-factory eagle mascot on the radiator cap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 11:28 am:

Well the color shows up much better in the HCCT pictures. And I couldn't tell if that was a round radiator on the pic's I posted. They should mark that one sold...thank guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 11:51 am:

What horsepower is that one? What a nice project. Denny has worked on a lot of different big brass cars in your area he maybe helpful. Nice guy too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Todd Manoff on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 06:31 pm:

Congrats on the Lambert. Saw it one on the HCCA site and thought, Wow, what an amazing automobile. I own a friction drive cyclecar, but much smaller in size. Haven't driven it yet, nor have I ever had the chance to drive a friction trans. car. Looking forward to seeing how well it works when I'm up and running.
Hope to be seeing updates from you on this one. Please keep us posted.
Todd
Santa Cruz
'11 Open Runabout


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Todd Manoff on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 06:42 pm:

Hood shouldn't be to bad to fab. Horizontal hood, 4-piece, 3-piano style hinges, fit to the radiator in front and hood former in back. From drawings you can questamate the hinge height locations, then figure out what it looks like at the hood sills, probably rolled up into a bead. Hood latches might take a bit to find some with the right look and some sheet metal shaping for the latch locations.
Looks like a great project, would be hard decision to restore or just polish up the way it is and make mechanically sound and drive it.
Neat car.
Todd
Santa Cruz
'11 Open Runabout
'23 Speedster


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 07:04 pm:

Dad and I own a friction drive car to but a lot smaller a 1911 Metz Plan car. Ours is a two cylinder. Itís about 95% complete. We are having a body currently built good luck and keep the pictures coming!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, July 21, 2018 - 12:51 am:

I looked at that Lambert on the HCCA classified site a couple weeks ago. I found myself really wishing I could try to buy any one of several of those cars from his collection. This one I think intrigued me the most because of its size. Lambert built quite an assortment of cars in sizes from high wheel to small standard configuration on up to rather large cars.
There were a lot of friction drive cars back in those years. Most of them inexpensive, low end products with limited appeal. The Cartercar and Metz are best known for friction drive in horseless carriage circles. However a lot of highwheel types were friction drive including the Sears Autobuggy. Also several of the cyclecars of the mid-'10s used friction drive.
Cartercar and Lambert probably built the largest and best of the friction drive cars in those days.
I have been up close with a few Cartercars, and spoken with several owners of them. They were well built and fairly large (for the era) cars. Had Carter not suffered an untimely death, it is entirely possible that the friction drive could have become as normal as the gear-shift. Carter had the dream, and the drive to alter the path that became history. When he died, his family sold the young company they had no desire to continue to the forming General Motors. GM continued to build cars for several years using Carter's designs. However, GM did little to promote the ideas or the marque. Some historians believe that the Cartercar purchase was simply one of convenience and short-term profits for the struggling GM. Carter's ideas conflicted with patents GM held and had Carter's ideas caught on with the public? They would have threatened cheaper alternatives for competitors to get into the business. After a few years, GM rolled the factories and other assets into other GM products.

While Lambert is less remembered in the antique automobile hobby, they too built some fine cars.

All this has me thinking back and wondering? I wonder if Brent in ten-uh-see is still out there lurking near this forum? I wonder what became of the early friction drive chassis he had acquired? And if he ever positively identified it? Maybe it could have been a Lambert?

The hood for this car should not be too big of a problem. Even a few original era photos or ads should yield a few clues. Build something that fits the space, and keeping within the techniques and styles of the day (not hard to figure out), and one should be fine. It is not like you will find yourself near another one anytime soon to compare it with!

As for level of restoration? That is a tough one. The car as a whole is a bit far gone for true preservation, although the body appears good enough to consider. I would think the answer lies in how much is known about the car's history. Just how much of what is there is known to be from a single original car? Condition of parts varies quite a bit. If he assembled this from the remains of a couple different incomplete cars? Then I would say a full quality restoration would be in order. Lets see it as it was originally intended. If it is basically one original car? I don't know if those fenders can be made to look nice enough to belong with that body (it looks good!). And then one would need to make a new hood look like it belongs. A tough call indeed.

The previous collector clearly had an interest in Lambert (his name for those that hadn't noticed), and likely was THE expert authority on the subject. I still wish I could somehow get one of those cars!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, July 21, 2018 - 01:53 am:

Robs link shows some really good photos and line drawings of the friction drive parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 04:59 am:

Unusual wheel, no provision for rings to hold tire; help, info, or rims greatly appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 06:22 am:

Thanks Wayne, just want to make a honest effort to get it as correct as possible. The books that Rob posted looks like the best bet. I hope to get better detailed pictures of it soon. I'm sure there will be many more questions for the experts. Thanks everybody!! I know this is a forum for Fords but many here have such vast knowledge of the era auto's, just want to pick their brains without upsetting anyone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 06:45 am:

Looks to me like the hood has a outward flare where the latches are...what are your thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Williamson on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 08:06 am:

Wheels are for Fisk bolt on tires


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 08:09 am:

Richard is there a information source for the Fisk bolt on? Thank you for your response ..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 08:56 am:

http://www.chicopeepubliclibrary.org/archives/items/browse?collection=8

This is what I found on a quick search^. Does not look the same re the metal ring on the wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 09:47 am:

Wow, that's a great picture and break down. I'm not sure what we will have until the car shows up. But thank you Mark this may be something that can be used for duplication. Thanks !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Williamson on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 09:53 am:

There is a similar tire used earlier that fits the wheels on the Lambert. Used on early Autocars, plain rim a shown on Lambert, thru bolts passing thru the tire with rectangular clamps holding loose ring in groove in tire. Ads can be found in early issues of Cycle and Automobile Trade Journal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 10:20 am:

While I was looking, I was thinking, maybe because how rare this setup might be, you could re-wood the wheels and use a more normal clincher rim instead. OR depending on size, mount and substitute clincher rims.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 10:38 am:

I'm getting a huge response on Facebook from all over the world. It looks quite hopeful that the correct setup may be obtainable. There is actually a Lambert group meeting/show today and the owner is on his way to it. Should be interesting to see what comes of it. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 06:15 am:

Portrait of John W. Lambert and view of Lambert and two passengers posing in a Lambert car. Handwritten on front: "J.W. Lambert, 1909. Buckeye Mfg. Co. J.H. [undecipherable], 1908. J.H.C. in Lambert friction drive en route to Bay City. 30 + 3 clincher ... Ain't this a special !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 11:26 am:

The owner just filled us in on the Lambert Auto Reunion yesterday. They congratulated him on owning the ONLY 40hp Lambert in the world. The ONLY shaft drive Lambert in the world. The ONLY large touring Lambert in the world. The Smithsonian's Lambert does NOT exist. So I'm think'n it may be a bit difficult to find much reference for this project. :-O


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 06:37 pm:

Wow! I knew that was a rare bird! Should be an incredible car done, either full restoration or major preservation. In this case, Either choice would be good. Although, once restored? It can never truly be original again. May be true. But once a car has passed a certain point in condition? Full restoration does become the better option. This car, I think is right in that difficult choice condition. Much of the car, the body and upholstery, is clearly preservation candidate condition. However the fenders and other pieces are not nearly nice enough (I hope the originals can even be used!). The engine appears to have been worked over some, and the hood (I understand?) is missing. It may not be quite original enough for a proper preservation. (Just my speculation from a distance.)

A reality not spoken about too often in the Horseless Carriage crowd, is that a lot of Horseless Carriages do not have correct wheels on them. This is a reality that goes back to the beginning of the hobby. Tires were simply NOT available for most early cars. To this day, only certain more common sizes and types remain readily available. When I had my series 80 Pierce arrow, I had to wait nearly two years for a limited purchase of four new tires (it was a limited run, and even getting extras was frowned upon because other people were waiting). And it wasn't that rare, nor anywhere near this early.
It seems like such a simple problem today. We have more than a hundred years of development to look back upon. However, in those early years, they did not have the materials, manufacturing techniques, or proven designs to work with. Cars were getting bigger fast. Wheel bases and body weights were growing each year. A friend of mine has a 1906 Locomobile. It was one of the larger cars of 1906. Yet, today, park it along with a bunch of 1910 to '12s at a major HCCA meet? It will likely be one of the smaller cars (although one of the most incredible looking cars!). The wheelbase of a Rolls Royce in 1904 was only 75 inches (I just looked it up!).
Speeds being driven were also getting faster FAST! One of the biggest problems faced by automotive designers in those days was "How to keep the tires on the car?" Before 1910, there were about a dozen schemes to mount and hold flimsy tires on heavy cars. Many of them required special tires made specifically for that particular wheel design. Even Ford offered (if I recall correctly) three different wheel types for the NRS cars (one was the Fisk design). This has been discussed before here, Rob H could probably enlighten us here better than I ever could). There were several methods used to bolt tires directly onto the wheel, as well as clamps that held the tire from the inside. Others had a bunch of bolts lined up around the felloe attempting to build the rim around the tire.
Some ideas may have worked okay, but were a pain in the wazzoo to repair a flat. Others were fast and easy, but often flipped the tire off on its own or in other ways created the flat for you to fix.
I have seen many designs, some on cars, others at swap meets or in friend's garages. Some I have only seen pictures of. I have never (not even inside my own head) tried to make any study of them (although I think it would be very interesting!).
I, too, have heard that there is an outfit in Europe that can make special early type tires for collectors that care. I don't have any details on them, but will try to remember where I read about them. (No promises.)

All that leads up to a simple reality. Sometimes, the best option is to replace/alter, modify the wheels to an appropriately size available tire. The hobby has been doing that since its beginning in the 1920s. Thousands of prized Horseless Carriages have wheels not correct for them. And many of their current owners do not even know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 06:53 pm:

Wow Wayne, we tend to think that those were better times. Yet because we take things for granted now days reality slides into oblivion. When I found the above picture of J.W. Lambert and noted the writing on the photo next to him I thought 30x3 tires would be the way to go. I was quickly corrected by a brass era rebuilder that the 30x3 would not be heavy enough to support this Lambert Touring. He plans on using a brand that I had never heard of before...Swinson ?? Or something similar to that. I plan to photo document the rebuilding of this car. The plan is to get it running and road worthy just as it is. Then if the owner wants it shiny, it may get restored. If I owned it, I don't know what I would do. I would have a hard time deciding...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 07:18 pm:

33X4 and 34X4 straightside are fairly common Horseless Carriage tire sizes. They would not be technically correct for a Lambert (probably?), but may be a good option for new wheels. I am fairly sure new rims are available for those sizes. If I recall correctly, I believe Ed's Locomobile has 33X4 on it. The size may be right for that Lambert (I would need to measure the wheels to speculate there?). It would just be the rim type that would be different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 07:26 pm:

Lambert wheel sizes for each year and model are discussed in Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert_(automobile)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 07:48 pm:

Wayne, When I posted my comment about doing about the same thing I had never heard of it being done. Thanks for that info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 08:23 pm:

Why not ask Jack Lambert?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 08:33 pm:

I believe that the 1907 Model H and the 1908 Model M were basically the same car and were the only shaft drive Lambert cars. Both were listed as having 32" wheels and I believe it was stated that the 1907 32" wheels had 32x3-1/2 tires.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 08:46 pm:

lambert m


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 01:50 am:

Looks like this type of hood:



Artisans at Craft-Tech fabricated this six-panel bonnet from polished stainless steel thatís coated to retain its luster. Aircraft-quality, pressed-in rivets secure 5-foot-long solid brass hinges with one-inch knuckles

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hcc/2018/04/Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang/3751613.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 09:13 am:

Don,
I may have a copy of the 1908 pub coming ( before you buy the one for sale). I'all pm you late today,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 05:45 pm:

Hi Don

Here is a teaser. A poor scan of an original period picture of the Lambert that I picked up some time ago and hung on the wall.

The original picture is clear enough to see the pin stripes. It also shows the Fisk demountable wheels and that the running board splash aprons are fabric and not steel.

It didn't fit my home scanner well. I'll have to take it into work to get a higher quality scan.

Stay tuned.

Jeff
Nova Scotia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 06:22 pm:

OMG !! That is huge! Jeff we may have to have a talk. I am going to PM you. Thanks so much for posting.

Thank you Rob !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 06:55 pm:

John, thank you for posting the spec's every little bit helps. And to all that have contributed you will have a slice of this restoration and know that its very much appreciated. THANK YOU ALL !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 06:59 pm:

Keith, thank you for the picture of the hood. It may be closer to the original than we know..thx again !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 02:54 am:

Jeff
Don't try to scan the whole photo. Take digital photos of the details.
Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 09:49 am:

Don,
Sorry for the delay. I think I'll have a scan of the book by the end of today. Do you mind if I put a few pages of it up on this thread? I'll send you a copy and link when I receive it.

Lambert, and all gearless of the period intrigue me. Henry Ford advocated a gearless transmission, and felt the Model K was essentially a one gear car, due to torque and good weight to horsepower ratio. Several other high end cars of the period were gearless, or used only one low speed in addition to a direct drive. However, three and eventually four speeds were the norm for high end cars

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 07:49 pm:

I sent this link and photos on to Don, and he said I could post them here too. All rights apply to the Indiana Historical Society.







Booklet link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ezwfwezqfx1xmhn/1908%20Lambert.pdf?dl=0


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 08:02 pm:

It looks like a Snapper mower!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 08:05 pm:

I recently purchased both books written by John Lambert's great granddaughter where she makes the case for her great grandfather being the first person in the U.S. to attempt to market a gasoline car. Fascinating reading!

Apparently Ellwood Haynes visited Mr. Lambert and secured a promise from him that he would not contest Hayne's (incorrect) claim to have created the first gasoline automobile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 08:07 pm:

Rob firstly, thank you for taking the time to research this. Secondly, I can't think of a better person to help shed light on such a mystical period of the past. It's inconceivable that this much information would be freely shared if not for the common interest of those on this forum. I hope to photo document the revival of this Lambert and unless the owner says otherwise, that is what I will do. The entire forum community will have helped and I hope they have a smile for doing so...thanks so much !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 08:12 pm:

Rob - thank you so much for the scan/link.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 08:15 pm:

Don, my pleasure. The Lambert, like so many other early marquees, took a unique approach to a common problem, transferring power from the engine to the wheels. Thank you for sharing the photos of such an interesting early automobile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 08:43 pm:

A very interesting car, Rob you amaze me with all your research on the early cars. I know if you get involved it is worth reading. Thanks all


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Thursday, July 26, 2018 - 07:27 pm:

Here is a little better picture of the Model M.


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