Another Fine Mess

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Another Fine Mess
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 10:01 am:

Apparently the other post has been deleted. I have been in touch with Tim Moore and he stated he will respond when he has access to a keyboard.

I do not know what he will explain, but he is aware of the situation regarding his book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 11:19 am:

Dave, if he can't see the other post because it was deleted, to what is he going to respond? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 12:29 pm:

Dick, this one with the same title :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 12:39 pm:

I meant "respond" in the sense of responding to what had been said earlier, not which thread he was going to post in. If he didn't see the first thread, then he doesn't know what it said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 12:44 pm:

perhaps someone copied and pasted the message somewhere on their computer and could email it to him?
I save threads that have info in them I think I can use sometimes if something gets put in there I think will get it deleted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john pawlowski - NE Pennsylvania on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 01:08 pm:

Isn't the Henry Ford / Hitler thread also deleted?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 01:28 pm:

Dick, he did see the first thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 01:35 pm:

If he's going to come here and get political, please ask him to refrain.

Seriously yall...I'm sorry if I got a bit passionate about keeping politics off of here, but this is one of the very few little corners of the internet where one can go and indulge in delightful things without the vitriol so prevalent in the world.

Model T's are just that...delightful. Even when they're causing you grief, they're still delightful.

This forum is, in my mind at least, an extension of that. It's a refuge of sorts. And, to see it smeared with the same muck that is so pervasive everywhere else today is deeply disappointing to me. I sincerely ask those of you inclined to bring politics here to resist the urge to do so.

That's my take on it. Maybe I'm just being too sensitive about it and the argument could be made that I could simply not read those threads. However, when a thread is titled, "Another Fine Mess", a logical person would expect to read something related to both T's and Laurel and Hardy.

Anyway...I'm home from church. It's Sunday. I have no plans for the rest of the day. I'm going to go pick some more bits off of my spare '25 chassis and take some more baby steps toward getting my '24 Touring back on the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, North Central AZ on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 02:10 pm:

Well said Don!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry K. Lee on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 02:43 pm:

Don,

I will heed your advise. My deepest apologies and you have the right to put me in my place. Thank You for reminding us what this is. I think most of us were a little offended for being duped and deceived and came out in defense.

Thank You Again,

Hank in Tin-A-See


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 03:28 pm:

Bless you Henry.

Much love and appreciation from Texas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 03:43 pm:

ďPeace for our timeĒ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 04:06 pm:

It would have been just as easy to use the word ďAmericaĒ in place of the word that was used. Using that word to describe ďAmericaĒ, turns a lot of people off on both sides of the political spectrum. Those that donít want to take the chance of hearing anything critical, and those that donít want to take the chance of hearing anything good. Jim Patrick

PS. If I was not successful at making this post apolitical, I apologize.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Schrope - Upland, IN on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 07:09 pm:

Rather than deleting a thread, I wish they would just lock it so on one could post anything else. Then at least you could see the first part which is usually pretty reasonable. They could even delete the offending posts towards the end and then lock it down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 11:01 pm:

Did anyone save that page? Or pages, as I see someone must have made something else i'd probably find amusing. I didn't get to see it.
I'll trade a previous thread from 2011 for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, July 22, 2018 - 11:24 pm:

I didn't save that particular thread because I didn't think it would be gone since the guy did drive a T across the country. I didn't keep up with all the details. It was T related.

The Henry-hitler thread,I am shocked it is gone.

What concerns me alot about the desire to prevent the "P" word from being on the forum is the fact that at some point in the future,folks like us will be in the cross-hairs to be eliminated or further controlled by folks in the "P" word field. Perhaps the privilege of owning a T or operating it will be in jeopardy. Will there still be folks that don't want the "P" word brought up? Where else would you discuss a damage control plan?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 07:13 am:

Obviously, that subject pushed the hot buttons of many of us who love our country. But I am with Don, my car and this hobby are my refuge from politics. I will do battle elsewhere. Cheers, Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Moore on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 09:55 am:

Hello all. Tim Moore here.

Well, with reference to the now-deleted thread about my book, I'm naturally upset to have caused so much upset. I'm also a little distressed at the level of personal vitriol, but not entirely surprised, given that on one level I did leave people in the dark about my route.

Let me first emphasise that this is NOT a political book. It is very firmly focused on my incredible adventure driving a Model T Ford across the US, and the splendid people I met doing so. It's the story (I hope) of an epoch-defining machine, the extraordinary man who created it, and the hard-working, ultra-competent and incredibly helpful and hospitable people who still carry the Model T torch.

It is also very much aimed at the UK market. I have had US publishers in the past, but I've never sold many books on your side of the pond. A lot of that is down to cultural references and a sense of humour that doesn't travel well beyond British shores (though weirdly, my only significant overseas market over the years has been Germany).

As some in the previous thread noted, publishers like to have a "peg" to hang a book on. All I really wanted to do was have a coast-to-coast adventure in a Model T, but I was asked to provide a rationale: why now? The election of Donald Trump was (and remains) an astonishment to Europeans. The Brits thought we knew America and Americans pretty well, but Trump's election proved we didn't any more. So the publishers encouraged me to explore this avenue, and find out what had changed in the US heartlands.

Trump mainly appears in the book as a counterpoint to Henry Ford. There seemed a lot of parallels between the two as businessmen who were adored by a large slice of the public, to the extent of both being encouraged towards the presidency. But let me assure you there is an awful lot more about Henry Ford in my book than Donald Trump. By a factor of about 100. Ford was a man with his own demons, but in terms of his achievements I personally find him inestimably more significant and interesting than Trump, and far more admirable.

As the last election proved, and as subsequent political events have emphasised, America is now a deeply divided and politically polarised nation (as indeed is the UK, as the very close-fought and still very divisive Brexit referendum demonstrated).

This, as one or two people noted on the deleted thread, is frankly why in the end I felt I couldn't open up about my route through Trump-voting territory. I would have created all sorts of hostility from the off. I had no desire to upset people in advance, or to give a misleading impression of the book. Full disclosure would have made my journey very difficult, maybe even impossible. I therefore made the decision to sacrifice total honesty. It's only fair that I'm now reaping what I sowed, but as some have said... don't judge a book by its cover (or its subtitle).

I can hardly promise that every forum member who might read it will be entirely delighted with some of the more political bits, but I'd be saddened - and a bit surprised - if all the people from here who helped and supported me were in any way hurt or offended. I hope I've paid tribute to the extraordinary car you all love, and the extraordinary resourcefulness and generosity of deed and spirit I encountered along the way.

And finally... I would NEVER EVER compare myself in any way to the god-like Bill Bryson! The fact that a few deluded reviewers have made the comparison, and that my publishers have eagerly splashed their words over the cover of my books, is entirely beyond my control!

Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Sommers on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 10:12 am:

If in fact, the book is "very firmly focused on my incredible adventure driving a Model T Ford across the US", the readers in the UK will be disappointed because they will be buying it based on what is represented on the cover. Personally, I don't think America is as divided as Mr. Moore thinks. We are Americans, and any political bumps in the road are temporary aberrations.
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 10:28 am:

Mack...if and when that issue rears its head, I think discussions of politics, limited to the issue would be in order.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 10:35 am:

Okedoky.
You know,I have never wrote a book,aint got enough sense to put that many words together. But If I did,I think I would make some effort to find someone to print it and market it to say what I wanted the book to say. I would not want them to take my work and warp it to their agenda. Sounds like Tim got used a bit as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By FreighTer Jim on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 10:48 am:

Tim,

I watched your progress over the months across America on the forum - it served to remind me of what I already knew:

Model T Folks will lend a hand to each other when needed.

They donít ask what your religious or political beliefs are - they donít ask what your ethnic heritage or your economic status is - they simply extend a hand to help.

I called you & offered to transport your car down the West Coast because your journey had served to Rally & Unite.

You are responsible for what you write and how it is marketed.

You introduced Politics into your Journey when few (if any) of the many Model T Folks who helped you along the way made it a concern.

The is enough Division in this Country without dragging it into the Model T Community.

FJ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Smith on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 10:55 am:

Tim, as you already know ,you won't please everyone and from what I read here, you might be 50/50 at best. As I sit in Vancouver this morning, I am reminded of the opinion or views people have based on who they are surrounded by and where they have been/live in general. You made a trip few would do and can write what you want and publish it. Telling our story is actually one thing that make us great as humans. I get that some people will want to protest it for emotional reasons and some will read it because it connects to emotions. It would be a boring place if people didn't tell their stories. TS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 11:47 am:

The phrase, "don't judge a book by its cover" was born in an era when book covers were plain boards with a few words on them -- not ones that have suggestive artwork and sarcastic commentary like they can print today. Publishers today very much want people to judge books by their covers so people will pick them up and buy them.

(Message edited by Wmh on July 23, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 12:10 pm:

I'm now more eager than ever to read this book! jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Davis. Tomball Texas on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 12:32 pm:

It seem's now You haft to do a print screen when viewing a topic in order to try and follow any post / discussion that may be even the slightest bit controversial. water pumps.fusing.12 volt's. paint color. and any modification that Henry did't officially approve.and the list goes on.Problem is not knowing what is on the list.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 01:02 pm:

I have not seen the book or the first post but when people stick their head in the sand their butt is exposed!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 02:36 pm:

I did some research. Go to about 44 minutes into this 1:19 video:

The Travel Rider In Conversation with Tim Moore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCDPCWnMJBU


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By FreighTer Jim on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 02:54 pm:

Anthony,

I watched from 44 minutes in to 54 minutes.

That was enough for me.

I always wondered why Tim chose the route he did.

Our Country has stood for more than 200 years.

We have weathered a lot of Storms.

FJ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 03:52 pm:

AW Hell,That is not the Tim Moore that is a model T man from south of Lansing,Mi????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 05:32 pm:

Anthony:

Thank you for posting the youtube link.

Notwithstanding what Tim wrote in his post above, it seems pretty clear to me from listening to what he had to say about the adventure in the youtube link, his primary focus for traveling across our great country was indeed focused on trying to understand the thought process of those who voted for Trump. The Model T was only the means to connect with the people he most wanted to meet in his quest to learn why they voted the way they did.

By his own admission, had he been candid about his real objective of the trip he likely wouldn't have been able to complete the trip in a Model T as there likely wouldn't have been near as many individuals from whom he could have obtained the free advice, parts and assistance as he made his way across our great country.

Timothy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 05:59 pm:

Bud, it's also not the Tim Moore who played George Kingfish Stevens on Amos & Andy. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerald Blair on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 08:15 pm:

Well I was wanting to purchase the book and enjoyed reading his post while on his trip. I did not see the first post and after seeing video I would not give 2 cent for a copy of that book now. He seems to think the American people are ignorant because we do not want America to turn into the UK. The way he used the man and his son for information and to take care of his car all the while bad mouthing them to a group of people is just uncalled for and maybe that is the way you do it in the UK but not here in America. I think they deserve respect for their kindness and if you don't like the way they live then move on. And to say he would be torn apart by Trump supporters just shows he totally misunderstood what happened and why, and who the people are that are trashing, protesting and burning the flags. Maybe if he really wanted to understand he might have talked to people with an open mind and he might have learned something that would be good to write about. Sorry for the rant but this just has me boiling an little.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Moore on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 09:02 pm:

Crikey. Please, just read the book when it comes out. Or don't, if you've already made your mind up.

Yes, Europeans are flummoxed and appalled by President Donald Trump. But I was moved to tears by the people who helped me out, the car that put the world on wheels, and the epic majesty of the American open road. That is the basis of my story.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 09:54 pm:

I lived in the Netherlands from January 1969 until July 1977. Arrived as a bachelor, left with a Dutch wife and 15-month-old daughter. Also spoke (and still speak) Dutch with uncommon fluency for a non-native. A gently superior and somewhat condescending view of the United States on the part of Europeans was quite familiar to me (Note: the British do not consider themselves Europeans. (English Austin friend of mine: "Remember, 'WOG' begins at Calais.") As an American, I consider Japan part of Asia and Britain part of Europe, regardless of what the English think.) That said, I tended to avoid anything resembling a political discussion because the Europeans assumed that they knew more about the US than I did, whether they had ever been here or not, or had been here for a short time. I got some of that same vibe watching the video of Tim.

I did make an exception once. Anja was an avid field hockey player, as were her brother and several other family members. They were at the AMHC (Alkmaarsche Mixed Hockey Club) every weekend and I was an enthusiastic spectator. After the games were over, everyone retired to the clubhouse, which overlooked the fields and had a very nice bar. Drinks and snacks were available and the social atmosphere was pleasant and relaxed. There was one girl ("girl" was an acceptable term back then) who was very left-wing and anti-American in her politics. Despite the fact that this was a completely social setting, she felt obliged to corner me and hector me about the Vietnam war (going on at that time). I finally had enough and launched into a very serious explanation about the fact that the US was a powerful nation with a powerful military, but that we had to test new weapons systems on a regular basis. I went to explain that we needed small wars here and there to test new weapons and that Vietnam was perfect for that. Everyone around us saw immediately that I was pulling her chain but she was so serious about everything that she bought what I was saying. I thought that smoke would start coming out of her ears. Did I feel guilty about it. Not at all. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 10:44 pm:

Tim, you may have missed the court cases during which Democrats learned how they got stuck with a bad candidate, why their primary votes are worthless, that their party leaders actually pick their "nominee".

I held my nose and voted for Trump not because I liked him, but because was a far better candidate: he knows things about which you are still very unadvised, about those ad hoc actions against the liberty and property of people in "Trumpland". If you were well-advised, you'd know not to waltz into America with pre-conceived Wilsonesque notions about who we are; you'd know the "American Dream" has been under attack by the political and mercantile classes that feed you the news; and you'd know why Tesla is (sadly) doomed to failure. You really have no idea.

Donald Trump is the result of "critical mass", the correct manifest rage millions of Americans feel for being more or less robbed by a two-party establishment for generations.

Good luck with your book, I look forward to reading it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, July 23, 2018 - 11:02 pm:

Tim,

Thank you for being honest and coming back on to the forum to explain your position.

I would like to think that the people that helped you on your journey are Model T people first, and would still help you the way they did. That politics could be cast aside, and let us help this man from Britain with his unique journey across this great land of ours. You did something a lot of us wish we could do.

The Model T is a wonderful machine. Everyone on this forum is related to this old car in some way, and let us keep that in mind. If it has to something to do with the Model T, let us share our experience with others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 12:02 am:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jerry knouse on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 08:32 am:

I think I will tour England, in my T, and [secretly] try to figure out the Brexit vote.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Manuel, Lafayette, La. on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 08:50 am:

Well I certainly enjoyed the posts about the trip as it progressed and was proud of the Model T community for its eagerness to help make the journey a success. I had been looking forward to reading the book but having watched part of the previously posted video I am no longer interested in contributing to the success of this charade in any way. All very, very disappointing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - 12:43 pm:

Tim Smith - For what it's worth, after following your trip across the U.S. in the Model T on this forum, and, after reading your explanation of how and why your book will no doubt contain some political information as well as coverage of the Model T "experience" as the Model T itself and your assurance that the main focus is still basically Model T Ford related, I as anxious to read your book as ever. And, I'm thinking that there will probably be many of the Model T community that will read it but for some silly reason, not ever admit on the forum that they read it. (Which to my mind is rather silly!) Thank God that in this country as well as in the U.K., we are all FREE to read, write and publish whatever we want. I personally think that there are some folks here on the forum that are already getting "all worked up" for really, no good reason. Hope you book does well Tim,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 07:04 am:

Tim Smith...?

Where'd that come from? I'll swear I typed Tim Moore!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Smith on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 06:45 pm:

Harold, we knew who you meant. I am not the center of this attention. all good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore, "Island City" MI on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 07:55 pm:

Lucky you Tim Smith! And Bud (Kenneth)DeLong, no not me but I am Tim Moore in Michigan. I watched the video at the time noted and the cat is out of the bag.

I have had Model T's for 41 years, can build them and drive them anywhere and if they do break can fix them. Stock Model T's are fun and I have several and have had many but also do dress them up with vintage speed equipment. That sometimes makes things more difficult with changes like overheads and non-stock ignition systems and exotic carburetors.

Please don't paint me into this picture because of my name. I am an NRA member who shoots guns out my back door anytime I want, having a fine time watching Trump piss off the world and thumbing his nose where it is long overdue. Don't really care what an outsider thinks as he cast no vote and has no say and opinion is irrelevant.

Just came in from working the Ford Jubilee tractor that I can fix myself, not drinking tea and if I had any would throw it into the river. Did one of those "Ancestry DNA tests" this year and yes my dead relatives came from Europe but guess what...they left for a better place.

Tim Moore, the real Model T guy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 08:01 pm:

Aint nothing like the real thing,Tim i mean!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 09:10 pm:

You guys are doing a great job saying what I think so Iíll just sit here and enjoy your posts after I say just one thing... Put me in the category of one who will not be buying or reading Timís book. I donít need to read a foreigner elitist psychoanalyze Americans on why those of us that voted for Mr. Trump, had the audacity to do so. It comes down to the choice we had. Jeez! Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 09:30 pm:

I will read the real Tim Mooreís book if he ever writes one. The one from Michigan. Well said, Tim!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Thursday, July 26, 2018 - 02:29 am:

I started to post several times but then decided to stay quiet. But if anyone wants this Englishman's opinion, feel free to PM me.


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