What can you tell me about my 1913 Canadian touring body number? Hap Tucker? :-)

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: What can you tell me about my 1913 Canadian touring body number? Hap Tucker? :-)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 11:06 am:

This is the body number on my grandad's Canadian 1913 touring: 10237. Any ideas as to who made it? Thanks in advance!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 11:36 am:

There could be a letter struck lightly into the wood to the left of the numbers but can't see it in this photo. Did you check the metal heel kick panels front and rear seat for a letter?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 03:43 pm:

It almost looks like a "W" about a half inch from the "1". IF it is a letter, and not just a mark in the wood, scratches from somebody's shoe, shadow in the photo, etc, it could indicate Wilson.
However! Being a Canadian car, it should be a Canadian body manufacturer by 1913. Most Canadian Fords had Canadian built bodies even for the NRS cars. It may be possible that some USA built bodies might have been used as production increased if the Canadian builders couldn't keep up.
I don't have any of the good books on Canadian production (like "Shadow of Detroit"), so don't have the names handy for Canadian body builders.

A quick google showed "G" for Gray and Sons, and "F" for Fisher (USA Fisher opened a plant in Canada to avoid tariffs). Some of that is questioned and not answered in a 2012 thread. A little time spent looking at other threads google offered didn't help much But if you want to spend some serious time looking? The following thread had some information of limited value,

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/319626.html?1354866221

And the search I used (my searching skills are not very good anymore),

https://www.google.com/search?q=who+supplied+car+bodies+for+Ford+of+Canada+in+19 13%3F&oq=who+supplied+car+bodies+for+Ford+of+Canada+in+1913%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57 .22208j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Somewhere amongst the million and a half useless responses may be some good information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 05:08 pm:

Thanks so much Wayne!

Ken & Wayne: My good and longtime friends Ross Harris, and Scott Kramer, both posters on this forum, were here this afternoon for a visit. I was tinkerin' with the car. We had the '13 out on the front lawn in the afternoon sunlight and could not find any letters anywhere on the body wood or metal.
I did pull out the original side curtains from under the rear seat to look at them, and found the original Ford tool bag under the curtains!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 05:17 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 06:34 pm:

Check the bottom of the doors.

Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 11:08 pm:

For Wayne -- you are correct that the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/319626.html?1354866221 "...had some information of limited value." But that posting has years of effort put into gathering that small amount of data. Canadian information is just not nearly as well documented as the USA production data.

For Darren -- adding your information to that previous thread along with what we have from the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/244616.html?1320359605

We know that the 1912 style Canadian touring cars had a "G" at the front of the body number. That "G" was for one of the company names that William Gray and Sons had (the name changed a few times).

We know that the list below of 1913 style Canadian touring cars had an "F" at the beginning of their body number:

#178296 - F11536
C323 - F13020
C1651 - F18293



C5275 F20033

And we know that is also true for a Canadian 1914 tourer found in Tasmania (Australia) (yet to get original engine number) but rounded doors, rear folding windscreen etc. F32854.



And in those cases we know the "F" stands for the Fisher Body Company of Canada (-- I did not look up the actual name -- but they were opened by the Parent USA Fisher Body Company to avoid the Canadian tariffs on the bodies -- ref: In the Shadow of Detroit - pages are listed in the two threads mentioned above.)

Note if your body number was a Canadian body produced by the Canadian Fisher body company with a poorly stamped "F" or no "F" at all but number 10237 then I would expect it to have a USA engine serial number or possibly a very low "C" prefix engine serial number. And if the engines were used sequentially and were well documented I would think it would be earlier than the serial number #178296 - F11536 above. But 178296 is in that group of engine numbers that Bruce did NOT have a very accurate source for when he published his book "Model T Ford. And you might even have a "B" engine serial number? Does the engine number agree with the serial number on the ID patent plate? [Note in the USA the numbers started diverging after Oct 6, 1911 ref Page 551 McCalley. But in Canada they continued to agree well into the 1920s. ]


Would you please share all but the last 2 digits of the engine serial number as well as the number stamped on the ID patent plate. I.e. 1771xx or whatever it is?

And as Ken Parker mentioned -- on some USA production 1913 bodies they stamped the body number into the wood on the underside of the doors.

Finally, please send me some higher resolution copies from several different angle of the body number. And if you have a tooth brush etc. please dust off the area. Allow several inches on either side of the number.

Hopefully we will be able to add a new lower body number to our know "F" Canadian bodies. But if not -- that is OK -- we will be able to add a data point and look for additional ones related to it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 08:28 am:

Thanks so much for all the information!!! As always you're a treasure trove of help Hap!!!
The engine number is B-872


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 08:37 am:

Sadly, the patent plate is missing, but the rad has it's original Walkerville Ontario tag. This is a very original car with only the seat cushions, top cloth and firewall being changed out. The tires I took off of it this week were installed prior to 1956. There's a high likely hood the patent plate still exists as I have to go and get all the boxes of stuff that was with the car when it was in storage in a couple of weeks.

This car has a lot of features that are more 1912-ish than '13. For example, the steering column with it's hard rubber knobs on the levers, the firewall dash shield is two piece,one being attached to the floor board, and the other on the firewall. The lights are all brass, not brass & steel, the windshield supports are brass, hub caps are 1912 style. There's diamond ribbed "Ford" thin brass "step" plates on the floor around both front doors. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 08:39 am:

Hap, I will get better pics asap :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 10:12 am:

Hope these help. I see no evidence of any letter before the number:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 10:54 am:

One thing is for sure. That AC speedometer needs to be mounted somewhere else! The correct Stewart speedometers are not difficult to find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace, Woodstock,Ont. Canada on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 10:58 am:

I have the whole complete Stewart speedo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 03:10 pm:

Truly a fantastic car!


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