Clamshell rear axle assembly diagram needed

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Clamshell rear axle assembly diagram needed
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Seress, Prescott Az. on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 03:22 pm:

I have a 1912 rear axle that was rebuilt many years ago, before me, but it was not finished. Where can I find assembly directions to finish the axle? It is completely different (12 rivets on each side of pumpkin ) from the directions in all of my books. The axles have a hair of end play but a lot of wobble play on each side where the taper is for the wheels. Thank you, Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 04:14 pm:

I may be wrong as it has been many years since I rebuilt the rear in my '10 and '12 but I do not recall that they were materially different than the later rears. The sleeves are different but the rest seemed to be the same except that the machining is such that you need to play with things a bit more to make them work. The housing uses studs as opposed to bolts for the pinion carrier and the carrier itself encloses the studs whereas the later ones are open and there is a raised collar for alignment. There are other minor differences but the fact that the housing is different on the outside doesn't materially affect the way the inside goes together. The MTFCA rear axle publication will work for you if you have it and if you don't you should get it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 04:28 pm:

The only drawing I have is what Martian did and it a later rear end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Seress, Prescott Az. on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 06:59 pm:

Anyone ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, August 03, 2018 - 09:01 pm:

"a lot of wobble play on each side where the taper is for the wheels" - are you checking without the roller bearings in ? If not, possible bent housings ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 12:06 am:

Frank, if you have the axles and diff centre assembled, install them in the housings without the outer bearings, and wobble the axles at the outer end, there will be significant movement. If you deflect the end of the axle in a circle around the end of the housing, and the circle ascribed is concentric with the tube, then the housing is likely to be straight. If the axle is somewhat closer one one side, then the housing needs to be straightened.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Seress, Prescott Az. on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 11:39 am:

There is no roller bearing and sleeve or even room for it, except maybe further in that I cannot see or get to. There is about 3/16 inch between a solid bar around the axle and the axle itself. I tried to remove the solid bar that looks like 2510 in the drawing above without being able to budge it. That is my dilemma. Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, August 04, 2018 - 12:00 pm:

2510 would be be the end cap that covers the seal at the end of the axle tube. It is pried or pulled off to see what is behind them. What books are you working with?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Seress, Prescott Az. on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 12:01 pm:

The 2510 is a solid piece of metal about 3/8 inch thick and won't come out. There is nothing regarding this situation in the model t ford service manual. If you have a nother book that concentrates on the older brass models please let me know so I can buy it. Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 12:35 pm:

Sounds as though they might be replacement outer bearings like a Stoltz or Wright insert bearing ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 12:43 pm:

Look for an Allen set screw hiding under the outside grease cup. If it has a modern type roller bearing set there will so be another set screw buggered into the diff casings near the "pumpkin". Best way for you now is to sit the pumpkin and pull the guts - the. You can see what you're dealing with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 12:44 pm:

Post a photo or two. if you can't send time to me and I will add to post. As Steve said, not original Ford. The outer bearing area of all but the earliest Ford were the same as the illustration above.
Try taking the grease cup out or is there a plug in it's place to hold the bearing cartridge in?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 07:06 pm:



That 2510 cap has to be pried off. Sometimes they are really stuck fast. Rusted or just plain stuck and have resorted to using a small trim crowbar that fits into the area behind the cap and the machined end of the axle housing tube.

Other times a chisel and hammer and bust it into a couple of pieces, that thing is easy to replace, and most times a new felt/washer/cap is needed anyway


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 07:17 pm:

Some pics of the cap, this thing is usually hammered in place on the axle housing tube, so it at times is a real bear to remove :-)






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 07:35 pm:

Or , if you don't have a cap and the end is solid, could be a non-Ford Model T part, a modern replacement for the outer Hyatt roller bearing. There are many different types of these, so a photo is needed to help you out.





This one has needle bearing and is busted and can't be removed from the outer end of the housing.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 09:21 pm:

Frank sent me some photos to post;


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Seress, Prescott Az. on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 09:54 pm:

After splitting the pumpkin I realized the metal cylinder that you can see is solid and protrude towards the center 3-3/4 inches and pressed in. The 1/4 inch around the axle does not leave room for bearings, so appearantly the previous owner that did this had other ideas that I cannot figure out. This was done maybe some twenty years ago and an experimental floating hub project or what? My club members and I have been trying to figure this out for a week now. Unfortunately both pictures are of one side of the axle but they are same on both sides. Please send all ideas. Thank you. Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 11:48 pm:

Too bad you didn't get wheels for it. Bet they were trying to go the way of the Model A with the bearing mounted in the hub by adding a bearing carrier/housing to the hub. These housing may be a bit more then you want to bite off, re cost and what would be needed to fix. You might be better off finding another pair of 12 rivet housings. They are not that uncommon.
The only options I could think of is to press the parts out and weld on short extensions to replace the part of the housing that has been cut away. Not know how much if any of the inside diameter has been removed when the parts were pressed in, if this would work with or without shimming the sleeve. You would still have most of the housing to support the bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, August 05, 2018 - 11:52 pm:

or you could install safety hubs as most types require you to cut off the outer inch or so anyway.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/2508SF.aspx
But then again it might come down to inside diameter of the housing it that would work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, August 06, 2018 - 02:15 am:

As far as I know from the pictures I've seen, there is no difference between the differential from 1909-1925...they're the same. The major difference being the housing and what is inside between the axle/differential and the housing.

But here, look these over if you like...





And my name is Martynn...not Martian, lol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, August 06, 2018 - 02:25 am:

I posted photos above of what is sticking out the backing plates. 9:21PM


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, August 06, 2018 - 06:56 am:

Mark, that spiggot looks more like the assembly was fitted with safety hubs. That collar receives a sealed ball bearing which is held inside the brake drum. This is like a floating hub on heavy trucks and takes the weight off the axles. An all round good idea.

Look for a grub screw holding it in place on the under side, perhaps even hidden in the grease cup. In the absence of a pair of threaded holes to accept bolts and a puller, the spiggot may be driven out with a bar from the inside.

Because the axle tube end which accepts the felt grease retainer and cup has been cut off to fit the floating /safety hub, a return to the same type of bearings will be needed, and this is a good thing.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, August 06, 2018 - 09:29 am:

Allan's view is proper.

While I always hate to see T parts cut/modified/ to replace with non-Ford design parts, the rear axle of the T is antique.

To repair the tube back to stock to receive the Hyatt sleeve, Hyatt roller, and outer grease cup shield would be difficult.

Seems proper to install the complete floating / safety hub in this situation of early axle housing.

Even with these floating /hub axle and wheel hub mating parts, this style can lead to these things :-( Likely related to the strength or age of this axle shaft right at the threaded portion, too much taper wear in the wheel hub or loose axle nut?





Hub portion of floating /hub bearing, same as in this post. End of the axle tube cut-off too for this modification.



Wheel with mating member to the hub bearing.



There are newer floating / hub parts to replace what is there now. May be the best way to go, investigate the best versions to purchase and install.



This version uses needle bearings, there are other designs more robust in the bearing methods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, August 06, 2018 - 12:05 pm:

Contact Dan McEachern for the best safety hubs as that is the only way to repair what you currently have, Frank !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Monday, August 06, 2018 - 05:38 pm:

I suspect where that axle broke may have been caused by somebody in the past may have been beating on a reversed nut to remove the hub. And that could have been done anytime in the last 90+ years.
People, we are putting modern enhancements on 90/100 year old cars with Ford not making any new parts. And NOS parts at a premium if you can find them.
I just received a new set of floating bearings and am really impressed at the quality and wish cooler weather would arrive for installation. With these I won't have to be concerned with my mis matched Hyatts.
And they are permanently lubed .
These tings look great !!



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, August 06, 2018 - 09:45 pm:

The beauty of the floating hub/bearing assembly shown in Dan's photos is that the axle carries no load. All it has to do is provide drive and braking to the wheel. The failure shown is not likely to be attributable to the bearing design.

When I devised the floating bearing hubs for my Hayes wire wheels I used rear wheel from a late 60's Holden, some of which were V8 powered, just one bearing on each side.

Needle roller bearings will not carry the same load. The load of the car is still carried on the axle, that load now being concentrated on two narrower journals. Well set up original Hyatts do the job just as well.

I cannot follow the thinking on the new style Dan posted. At the outer end there appears to be a large ball bearing set up as a floating bearing, the weight of the car carried by that bearing. A good idea. Then there is that needle bearing, which appears to run on the axle shaft. So we have load taken off the axle at the outer end while retaining load bearing on the inner end. Am I missing something?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 06:12 pm:

Allan

I can't comment on the floating hub for wood wheels of the photo I posted. Just photo describing these devices.

Here is the info on Model T Ranch web page on that new part.

SKU: 1039-1
Type 3-W Floating Rear Hubs - Wood (single)

1039-1 An important factor in making an easy running and reliable highway car is a ball-bearing rear axle. In the regular Ford construction, the load is transmitted from the housings through the roller bearings to the shaft and to the wheel hub. This causes severe bending strains in the axle shaft. The ball bearings replace the outer roller bearings, but with the radical difference that the ball-bearings transmit the weight of the car directly from the axle housing through the ball bearings to the rear wheels. In the ball bearing construction, the axle shafts carry only the driving and braking effects and are only subjected to twisting strains. When using the standard Hyatt bearings, axle shafts have twisting strains and severe bending strains due to the loading and bouncing of the car. The bending strains are responsible for the grooves that develop on the axle with the regular Ford construction. You will receive One Type 3 Floating Rear Hub.

Instructions are included for the modifications that are necessary. Refer to #1040 if your car has wire wheels.

Price for Each: $235.00


Seems the written description is 'ball bearings' but I see straight needle roller bearing that indeed runs on the axle shaft. The harden small needles on axle might be prone to hammering of the movements of the Ford axles in the rear end as the T bounces over the roads. :-)

Guess its just my desire to stay with the 15 million Fords that ran those Hyatt rollers, they have lasted the test of time.

Sure axles can break, and get worn, but the long slightly flexible Hyatt roller on the axles are what I will keep on running in my T's!

When I rebuild rear ends , use the best Ford style parts, new axles, but do however put in the Fun Projects pinion set-up, have found these work very well for me.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 06:13 pm:

Per Allan's comment above- running a needle bearing on a soft shaft like an axle is a really bad idea and will lead to failure of the bearing surface.

Frank- I have replied to your e-mail.

Thanks, Dan


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