OT - Name that really old old old car

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: OT - Name that really old old old car
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Sunday, August 12, 2018 - 10:49 pm:

Found this looking through Nebraska historical pictures. Can you name the make, year and model, I can't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Sunday, August 12, 2018 - 10:51 pm:

I can't.
I looks like it has wire wheels if that helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 12, 2018 - 10:59 pm:

It may be flipped. The marking on the left is backwards. Looks like it may be February, 1898.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 12:05 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 12:24 am:




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 12:39 am:

On the righthand side of the picture is 323.
Interesting that the street appears to be dirt but there are concrete curbs and sidewalks and in-ground water mains with fire hydrants in what looks to be a rural area. Not new construction as the trees are well established.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 12:42 am:

The Kimes/Clark Standard Catalog of American Cars lists 47 cars known to have been made in Nebraska. I may try to look some of them up later.

I don't recognize it, but it does look to be quite early. I spent quite some time researching really early automobiles some years ago. It may well be a one-off creation by an early experimenter. There were more than 400 one-off cars known to have been built by individuals or small companies before 1900 in the states. (NOT counting people or companies that did actual manufacturing of a number of automobiles.) Most of those not known to more than a few historian types. Nearly twice that many were made between 1900 and 1905. So, there are a lot of possibilities.
Wire wheels were very common on American automobiles before about 1903. Bicycle type wheels were easily adapted to early small cars. As cars got heavier, the readily available wires became less sturdy. In Europe, where practical woods were in short supply, wire wheel and even steel disc technologies were advanced to meet the needs. In America, with thousands of acres of old growth Hickory, it was just simpler to switch to heavier wood spoke wheels for the next two and a half decades. What is interesting about this, is that in England and Europe, the most expensive automobiles were the ones using most of the wood spoke wheels.
Something else I notice about the car, is the lack of bulk to the body, or machinery beneath the car. I suspect that it may be an early electric. Probably a very limited range with only a few batteries. There were quite a number of early efforts with electrics.


Great photo! Interesting car. Thank you Philip B for posting this!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 05:31 am:

Getting interesting. There were actually several early cars in the state of Nebraska. Many, very little is known about. And most, no photos have yet been found. I haven't followed up on all 47 listings yet, but a couple so far.
One, an automobile built by Otto Bayersdorfer of Omaha Nebraska, shows up a few times in both the Kimes and Clark book as well as lists on google. there is conflicting information, year built is given as 1899 by Otto Bayersdorfer or the 1901 Otto-mobile, described as a "light gasoline carriage". Under the Bayersdorfer listing, the weight of the car is given as 265 pounds. Quite light. The engine is described as a small two cylinder hidden under the seat, with belt and chain drive. Could be the car above? Otto was described as a part time bicycle repairman and part time inventor and tinkerer. He and his brother also built a motorcycle, a dirigible, and later, an airplane.

Another likely suspect, is Reuben E. Cecil of Lincoln Nebraska. His car is better recorded, and still exists in a museum. Pictures of the existing car are very close to the one shown in the above photos. However, there are several significant differences. The chain drive appears centered, while the one above is offset. The wheels are slightly different, as are some details of the body and seat. Most of the differences could be explained by the fact he was a tinkerer, and may have made changes to improve the operation of the car after the above photo was taken, that and the car's survival history. Reuben took the car apart some time after he was done using it as his daily driver, and stored most of it in boxes for nearly fifty years. Apparently, some parts were lost, and he had to make new ones when he reassembled the car in the early '50s.

Maybe someone better than I at this computer stuff can find and copy a picture of the car in the museum?
It is on page 265 of my Kimes and Clark book.

Bizarre. The Cecil is shown on page 265? And the Bayersdorfer Otto-mobile reportedly weighed 265 pounds? I wonder what some numerologist would make of that?
No, I am not that crazy. Just the irony caught my attention when I checked the page number to help anyone else look it up in the book.

If I find any other likely early efforts in Nebraska? I will add them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 07:49 am:

Could it be Henry with a very young Edsil?Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 08:12 am:

1901 Remington is my guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 08:17 am:

I find it interesting that these old cars have a similar shape. The dash on this one is similar to the Model A Ford, the Cadillac and others of the early nineteen tens. Was there communication between the people interested in making a car? Or was it simple development, starting from a similar benchmark and being influenced by the past traditions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 09:15 am:

The reason the lettering in the lower left corner is backward is because it is scratched in the emulsion of the film. The emulsion side always goes toward the image, so the first image shown is correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 09:18 am:

OK, Mr. know it all got that backward, the 323 is scratched in the emulsion and that would indicate the first image is flipped. Or is it? I think I need a cup of coffee.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 09:22 am:

Interesting spring configuration on the front. Looks like a semi-eliptic set-up, but then the spring supports have no arc to them?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 10:34 am:

Wonder where in Nebraska this picture was taken. Anybody notice the fire hydrant? It must have been in a larger town to to have a fire hydrant. Or could it have been a water main instead of a fire hydrant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Beatty _Kansas City on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 10:41 am:

The site where the photo was found says it was taken in Kearney Ne.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?psbib:11:./temp/~ammem_nolB::


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 11:14 am:

Found a bigger image a few clicks from the above link then cropped the car out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 11:20 am:

It’s an 1898-1902 Homemade....The Picture is of that era but the ‘car’ shows a great deal of wear. That leads me to believe it’s not factory. I think it was made to appear like a Locomobile. Heck, there was even a homemade car running around little Lockhart, TX population 352 in 1900. They were all over the country.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Andreasen on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 11:43 am:

As for the "shape" of the front end.....or the whole car for that matter....let's not forget that the early cars were heavily based on horse drawn buggy technology.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Govoni Fredericksburg, VA on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 11:43 am:

Waltham Orient?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 11:55 am:

Oh wow!! Thanks for the clarity Chris. To further substantiate my musings, check out the wooden brake chocks working on the LR wheel. What “factory” utilized that buggyness??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire (La Florida!) on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 12:01 pm:

Looks like a chain drive on a straight axle. no differential would make sharp cornering "Tricky"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 12:19 pm:

could be only one wheel drives. charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 01:05 pm:

Apparently water cooled too. Isn't that a radiator up front?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dale w on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 01:34 pm:

I agree with George H., probably a home made Auto-buggy.

Dont forget it was quite the fad in the late 1890's to build your own self-propelled contraption. In fact, there was a guy in Detroit, in a shed on Bagley Avenue....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks NY on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 01:59 pm:

So it's a bitsa?

I wonder if he was ridiculed by production car owners...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 02:30 pm:

Home assembled doesn't necessarily mean homemade or scratch built parts.

There were automobile supply companies the catered to both the trades as well as individuals where you could buy practically anything needed to build a motor car right off the shelf. You could also buy components directly from manufacturers. There were also complete kits such as those offered by A.L. Dyke.

Just browse very early issues of Horseless Age to see what was readily available.

Very few people were building cars entirely from scratch. For example, I high doubt Henry Ford built the wire wheels for his Quadricycle - they would have been a purchased item.


1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 02:43 pm:

George, as this seems to be a "one off", I'm pretty sure springs, axles and the brakes are all light "spring wagon" parts. Looks like angle iron was used for the frame, replacing buggy-type "reaches". Front axle modified to allow steering action would have been a bit challenging for the early day inventor, but I'll bet the local blacksmith could make most anything he could dream up - maybe this feller WAS the local blacksmith ! Wonderful picture, made better by the good detail in the closeup. Thank you, Philip and Chris.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dale w on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 03:32 pm:

Not the same car but kinda close- IF that automobile was a early prototype, this may be a possible decendant, built in Topeka.




http://www.american-automobiles.com/Veracity.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erick Keenan - Vineland NJ 08360 on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 03:51 pm:

I am impressed by the cement walk and fire hydrant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 03:40 am:

Just for obsession's sake, I looked at the rest of the listings in the Kimes and Clark book. There were a couple more circa 1901 home-built cars in Nebraska. Details on all of them were lacking, but none appear to be very likely to be the car in the above OP photo.
For a relatively low population state, there was a good amount of automotive experimentation in that early decade. At least one claimed to have been run in 1895.

So, if the car was a home-built in Nebraska (rather likely), it would still most likely be the Otto Bayersdorfer Otto-mobile, or the Cecil.
I think someone involved with Nebraska history should pursue this further. Since this photo did not show up on several google searches, and most of Nebraska's early automotive efforts have no known photos of them? This could be a significant photo of an early Nebraska built car? But that is all speculation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Story on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 04:09 am:

most men's clothes has buttons on the right and lapel pins on the left. If the picture is flipped it would show the other way


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 09:43 am:

Eugene, which is "the other way" ? Good clue, the way clothing buttons up ! Looking at the man's vest, it appears the photo was presented correctly when first shown, outbuilding behind the car to the left of the picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 10:21 am:

Concrete sidewalks and curbs with dirt streets? You bet. In small town America paved streets were a project of the teens. A feature in our local paper is 100 Years Ago in the Traveler. For the past two or three years there have been occasional items about the paving of various streets in the late teens. One mentioned the question of whether the paving should be brick or macadam. Fortunately they went with brick.


Ninth Avenue at Main Street, Winfield. Note the touring without a windshield. The sidewalks and curbs are concrete, crosswalks are stone with boards over the gutters, streets are dirt (until it rains).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 03:23 pm:

There's a strong reason for that. Pavement and horses don't get along. Brick or cobblestones are unkind for impact, compared to good old dirt, but afford good footing and traction for equines. Macadam is slick and hence dangerous for the ponies at work. The timing of pavement in the 'teens corresponds to the motor revolution. Photos of city traffic from 1900 into the early 'teens show how rapidly the country converted from horsepower to motors in urban spaces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Codman on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 10:26 am:

Duryea?


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