Non-demountable rim?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Non-demountable rim?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Petoskey, MI on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 08:43 pm:

I have a mostly '24 roadster converted to a pickup. 3 of the time are 4 tab demountable ... if I am using the term properly. One is apparently a non-demountable, with no tabs, and held on with the captive huts and jam cleats. One of my demountable rims is apparently bad, and I got a rim cut on an otherwise nice tire.

I ordered a new tire, tube, etc, one seeing the rim cut, and confirmed the rim is pretty sharp in that area, with a few other spots almost as bad.

So, I need to order a new rum. Looks like the non-d, and d rims are interchangeable, as long as you swap the nuts, as well, is this correct? As I have one non-d, I thought I would replace my bad rim with another non-d and pair up with the other.

The rims are quite a bit less expensive, but I still need to source the jam cleats with captive nits yet, as well.

The non-d rim seems to stick out from the outside edge of the fellow, more than the others.



Note, all the wheels are wood spoke, with metal follows, with all 30 x 3 1/2 tires

I'm curious as to why the tables rims with the captive buts are called non-demountable, as they are just as easy to demount as the demountables.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 08:49 pm:

All four wheels you are describing have demountable rims and are therefore demountable wheels.

A non-demountable wheel means you cannot remove the rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Petoskey, MI on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 09:17 pm:

Good... that makes more sense... so the rin would be somewhat permanently fixed to the fellow, then....

Should the tabbed and un-tabbed demountable be interchangeable, then?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 09:26 pm:

Yes no maybe. Not all rims will fit all wheels. You look like you have Stanweld (?) rim in the photo, that was not a Ford brand rim. I suggest posting photos of all 4 wheels and at least one shot of each of a tab at about the same angle as above for each rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Petoskey, MI on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 09:42 pm:

Yes ... this one is the odd one. The other 3 are all tabbed clinchers. I'll take the photos, however, Looks like I'll likely really need to replace 2 rims ... one for the one making the rim cuts, and this odd one, so they match the others.

Guess I'll need to wait until light, now! LOL

Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 10:49 pm:


This is a non-demountable clincher wheel. It's the "square felloe" type used in the twenties. The clincher rim is permanently attached to the wood felloe.


This steel felloe wheel has a demountable clincher rim. Wheels like this were made by Prudden, Hayes, Firestone, Kelsey, and Ford. There is no such thing as a "Kelsey Hayes" Model T wheel. This one happens to be Hayes. Eventually they were all made interchangeable, but for several years they were not.

See pages 689-699 in Bruce McCalley's encyclopedia for lots of information on wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, August 13, 2018 - 11:21 pm:

The rim you show is not a Ford rim. It is from some other car.
For the 30X3 1/2 demountable rim wheels, Ford used wheels from at least four sources. Some rims will interchange okay, some will not. The first thing you should do is figure out which wheels you have, and get good rims that match the wheels. You should also consider tying to have four matching wheels so that one spare will work well on any wheel.

There have been some threads in the past that went into great detail about the different wheels. But my bookmarks disappeared into cyber never-never land last year so I can't help there very much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 02:32 am:

The rim in the photo is most likely a Chev rim. the slotted lug is a clue. If it is a Chev rim the Chev valve stem hole is on the wrong side of the lug and a second hole would have been drilled to fit it to a Ford wheel. Chev rims are wider, so the lug will stand further off the wheel felloe.

I you have a rim which has detachable clamping pieces, that rim goes on a wheel with registers stamped in the inside face of the felloe between the spokes. If your wheels do not have these slots pressed in them, you have a mismatch which may be unsafe.

Photos of each wheel, showing where the mounting bolts go, would enable a more precise response.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 03:14 am:


Weld wire to the rim edge if replacement are hard to find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 09:45 am:

I gather 11, 7, and 4 refer to mm. Is that right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Petoskey, MI on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 10:14 am:

Kep... looks like a reasonable amount of work.... but a cool fix!

Here are my 4 wheel/rims:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Petoskey, MI on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 10:18 am:

Argh.... pics would help!

#1


#2


#3


#4


#5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Petoskey, MI on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 10:31 am:

Pic #1: is passenger side rear wheel

Pic #2: is driver's front

Pic #3: driver's rear wheel... obviously a Hayes rim.

Pic #4: passenger front ... the legless rim with jam clears and captures nuts

Pic #5: driver's front, I think... has a lip on the fellow, at each lug location.

The spare is another 4 lug, like #1 I might have a welder do some spit fixes like Kep's post, and keep for spare. The lugless rin will be replaced with a 4 lug rim like the rest.

Thanks, all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 10:54 am:

The Stanfield (?), as Mark says, is not a Ford rim. The Hayes is easy to ID as it has the name stamped on it. The lug diagram and other info in the encyclopedia may help you figure out the others if they're really Model T rims.

If you decide to standardize with wheels of the same make all around, I would go with Hayes. The rims and the felloes they fit are easy to ID, and I think they're the most common and easily found.


Hayes lug


Hayes felloe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Juhl on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 11:04 am:

OK, while you guys are helping Dennis, maybe you can tell me what make this rim is. There's a set on a car I'm looking at. The car is an hour away so this is the best I have right now. I'll want to get another rim for a spare which is why I'm asking.
wheel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 11:25 am:


This doesn't cover all the various rims, but it may help ID some of the most common ones. Demountable rims came from several sources, so figuring out what you have is sometimes quite a research project. Having the rim off the wheel will let you see details that are hidden when it's mounted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 10:20 pm:

Dennis, your photo number 5 shows an odd wheel in your set. That slot in the felloe is a register on which one end of a U shaped lug engages. The other end of the lug, which is shorter, engages in a slot on the rim, or against a ridge on the rim, depending on brand. The nut for this setup has an inbuilt flat flange on the back, not the taper shown on the other photos. That wheel takes what are known as loose lug rims.

Rims with fixed lugs will go on that wheel, provided that it is not a Hayes rim. The foot on a Hayes lug needs a recess in the edge of the felloe
like that shown in your photo no3. However, it is not an ideal situation as the rim will not be wedged onto the outer edge of the felloe as it should be. Also the narrower edge on the inside of the felloe will not engage on the rim, so all the forces are taken up by the four rim bolts. These need to be watched and kept tight.

Steve, you have posted that photo of the red Hayes felloe before and it confuses me, The only T model felloes with the straight up outer edge on our Canadian sourced cars is on 21" Kelsey wheels on our 26-7 cars. Hayes wire wheels have the rolled in outer edge with the relief stamped in them for the foot on the lug, just like Dennis's photo no 3. We only have Kelsey 23" wheels, so never see this relief on T wheel, but I have seen it on Overlands with Hayes wheels. Do you fellows have 23" wheels with felloes with that straight up outer edge?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 11:02 pm:

Yes, I sure do on a 1919 Centerdoor - 23" Hayes.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 - 11:09 pm:


Yes, all the Hayes 30 x 3½ rims on my 1923 touring are on those felloes with notches to accommodate the Hayes lugs.


The lugs extend in past the bead which butts against the felloe and fit into the notches.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 - 02:25 am:

Which begs the question, why and when were the changes in the design made. Dennis's no3 photo clearly shows the rolled in edge and depression for the lug.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 - 10:18 am:

A related question: Eventually the wheels from the various sources were standardized so the rims could be interchanged. Which supplier's design became the standard?


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