Engine/Transmission vibration

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Engine/Transmission vibration
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 26, 2018 - 11:48 pm:

This is not just normal Model T noise. In fact, it's no extra noise at all. Not a knock, or a rattle, or a ding. It's a pretty high frequency vibration I can feel through the steering wheel and floorboards. I was planning to drive this runabout to the OCF, but now I'm having second and third thoughts.

After looking at some previous discussions on the subject I've tried different coils and found no difference. The pan ears are fine, and the blocks are in place. The front mount is solid. Those are the only things I've checked so far.

This engine has only about 3000 miles on it since it was apart at Mike Bender's for replacement of a bad valve lifter. My guess is about 5000 miles since a complete rebuild in 2013.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Sunday, August 26, 2018 - 11:54 pm:

G'day Steve,

Is this vibration when the engine is rev'd up only or when the car is in motion?

Peter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 12:13 am:

When I first noticed it I thought "U-joint?", but the vibration is the same at fast idle as when it's moving. It's not anything from the clutch on back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid Central WI on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 12:51 am:

What did you replace in the rear end?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 08:51 am:

Axle shafts, big felts on one side, seals, and DS bushing. As I said, that's all irrelevant. The vibration is present when the car is sitting dead still at fast idle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 08:58 am:

Steve

Can you locate the vibrations point or points?

Seems if from the seat you feel vibrations from the steering wheel rim and floorboards, those parts are connected to the body via dash and main sill. Maybe the body bolts or firewall brackets are loose?

Can you put a clear container of water on the engine somewhere and see it shake, then move it to top of cowl, and then to floorboards and compare the visible shake in fluid motions?

May not work, but thinking a try might find the source.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 09:10 am:

Triple gears? Cam gear? Sure hope you get the car to OCF, Good Luck, drive careful! jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 09:24 am:

I would love it if this was something as simple as loose body bolts. But it's present when the car isn't moving. I think that puts loose body bolts in the same category as the rear axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Walters on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 09:33 am:

Steve, Does it still vibrate when in low or reverse?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 09:34 am:

Fourth main?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 11:04 am:

How's the magneto?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Instness on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 11:20 am:

Fan blades making contact with anything?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 11:20 am:

Steve, maybe your spark plugs are acting up, bet you could make one of these fixtures so on the road to the OCF you can fix 'em :-)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john hardiman on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 12:06 pm:

stethoscope?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 12:26 pm:

If the vibration wasn't present before you swapped rear axles, then I would sure look at things that changed when you swapped the rear axle. Did you use a different U-joint? Did it slide easily into place, or was it binding and have to be driven in? Did the 4th main position get disturbed during the swap? etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 12:26 pm:

My dad always complained about a thumbing vibration after he had the engine rebuilt. He never was able to find it. I never heard it unless in the passenger seat. Finally found the cause by accident when I was polishing the Pass. front fender with an orbital polisher. Re tightened all the fender bolts and it went away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 12:49 pm:

How could it be the U-joint or anything behind it? The vibration is present with the car sitting perfectly still with none of those things moving.

Dan's suggestion of spark plugs is an interesting coincidence. I did find and replace a bad plug this morning. Unfortunately it had no effect on the vibration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 01:05 pm:

Loose flywheel or loose timing gear?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Walters on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 01:06 pm:

Steve, Does it still vibrate when in low or reverse? Does it vibrate in high gear? If it stops in any of those it would help narrow down the cause.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 01:17 pm:

Steve

This is your first major trip in the T. I bet you are just like most that have taken off as you plan to. Seen it happen many time when we have took off on a 3,500 to 6,000 mile drive. You will feel and hear more things that have always been there and are not a problem. My advice is "Run it and see what develops".
Have fun on your trip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 01:27 pm:

Oops, my bad Steve, I missed the part where you said it happened even when the car wasn't moving. :-(

Did you install anything new up in the engine compartment, like maybe engine pans that weren't on there before? Did you find something that runs from the engine to the frame loose and tighten it?

From your description, it almost sounds like something is transmitting normal engine vibration into the rest of the car that wasn't before. Hope you either find it or determine that it isn't a problem after all. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 02:11 pm:

I think Harold may have nailed it. Sometimes people donít safety wire the flywheel bolts correctly and they can loosen over time. You might be able to access them through the dip tray to inspect, but probably you will have to remove the engine to tighten and wire properly


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 03:17 pm:

Being high frequency and inaudible, combined with a recent replacement of a lifter, I'd place my money on cam nut coming loose on timing gear causing gear mesh trouble.

I could be completely wrong, but I think that a loose flywheel is going to give a lower frequency knock if really loose (and you'd sure hear it). With dowel pins and safety wire, even incorrectly installed, the bolts won't move much and the dowel pins will keep things in place such that a vibration is unlikely to develop, much less a high frequency vibration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid Central WI on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 07:27 pm:

What about your forth main bearing, you had your rear axle off and put it back on. How did you align and tighten the joint? Can that ball cup be a little off kilter?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 08:22 pm:

Several have mentioned body bolts. I would start there. The engine puts out a lot of vibration and is solidly mounted to the frame. First start with the engine mounting bolts on the side of the hogs head. The ones through the the wood should be snug not tight. Do they have cotter keys? You already mentioned that you checked the front mount. Next look for loose bolts in the fenders as George talked about. These are simple things and easy to fix before diving into the engine. If you cannot find anything by checking these things then start with the simple engine things first, such as the cam gear, front pulley, fan bearing, etc. Or do as Mike Bender suggested, drive it around for a while. Do short trips first then longer ones.

I had a strange noise when turning after I rebuilt my engine. Turns out it was the fan hitting the starting crank ratchet in the front of the engine. A longer fan belt solved the issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 09:53 pm:

Fan blade, belt, bushings or pulleys vibrating.
coils out of adjustment causing one or more to fire at different timing or problem with timer.

compression varies from cylinder to cylinder.

Something in the engine or transmission out of balance.

If you have checked out all of the above, and I would caution you to be sure the fan blades are not loose or cracked which could damage the hood or radiator.

I would say if your drive is a short distance, go for it. If longer trailer the car, or go as a group with a trouble trailer following. If the vibration continues to increase, trailer the car. If it remains the same, have fun and drive.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sullivan on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 12:46 am:

I have experienced similar feelings often, when leaving home in a truck, it feels shaky, but when you reach your destination, it's good, and feels better on the way home. Runnin' smooth, perfect. Dave in Bellingham, WA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 01:01 am:

Joe, I held the U-joint shaft level with a piece of wire and slid it into place without much trouble. The ball cap was and is stuck to the pan with Ultra Black, so it's not going anywhere.

After dinner this evening I went for a ten mile drive that included a climb up Horseshoe Hill in high gear. I'll continue to check various suggestions this week and I'll continue driving the car. If I find something, fine. If I don't and the car is no worse, I'll go and see what happens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid Central WI on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 04:23 pm:

Sounds like a good plan. Just check what might be different from reassembly. Iím doing the same thing with my 1920 Roadster after a long block rebuild. I also restored the rear end, new thrust washers, etc. so far so good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 04:54 pm:

Check your magnets/keepers.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Eddie on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 05:35 pm:

Steve,
it may help to use a stethoscope at different spots on the engine when running, should to pin point where the source of the vibration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - 09:19 pm:

Take the fan belt off and try it. I've had a very out-of-balance fan blade make a LOT of vibration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen, Madera California, USA on Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - 12:48 am:

Steve, Did you change out your 1915 roadster steering gear with the 1915 steering gear that you were rebuilding ? I would check out that all the steering gear mounting bolts are tight, etc. Also check that the carb rod lever arm and timer rod lever arm are pinned tight on their rods. I think 1915 still used the two pin lever arms, did you use two pins and one fell out?. I'll bet that a loose carb rod and arm can vibrate at a high pitch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Friday, August 31, 2018 - 08:56 pm:

Well Steve! Whats your progress? Is the Trip in the T still on? Just curious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 31, 2018 - 11:52 pm:

Still up in the air. Somebody who knows what he's doing will check it out tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 01, 2018 - 02:04 pm:

Experienced T mechanic checked it out and drove it. Suggested improvements to my spark practices. He said go. I'm packing. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Saturday, September 01, 2018 - 04:52 pm:

Great news Steve. Looking forward to seeing you there.


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