***1919-1925 Firestone Loose Lug Demountable Steel Felloe Rims to Wheels Assembly***

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: ***1919-1925 Firestone Loose Lug Demountable Steel Felloe Rims to Wheels Assembly***
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martynn Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 11:55 pm:

Royce Peterson brought this one to my attention...it is basically the same size as a Ford Standard wheel (meaning it's not Kelsey or Hayes) but none of the parts are interchangeable between them and the Ford Standards.




From what I've been told apart from the Ford Standard wheel, this is the second most popular configuration, found on many cars in the US and Canada.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, September 10, 2018 - 08:20 am:

Martin, I know nothing about the Firestone wheels and rims. I can see the notches in the felloe at the rim bolt holes, and that the felloe has no rolled in outer edge. I cannot see how that lug like the Kelsey lug can work in that application with no 'foot' on the felloe for it to engage upon. Perhaps the lugs are a little different somehow?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Monday, September 10, 2018 - 08:56 am:

May be this is the type,

rim01

the felloe drawn looks to be Hayes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, September 10, 2018 - 10:20 am:

Here is one post about rims, showing more info. Dan
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/764548.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, September 10, 2018 - 08:28 pm:

Those Firestone demountable rims were first available about 1910.

A give away clue for those rims was that they always had 5 lugs.

Rim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Walters on Monday, September 10, 2018 - 09:38 pm:

TTT


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 12:45 am:

On the old Firestone advertisement that James Golden posted, showing a set of wheels, there is a socket lug wrench included. It is shown in the lower left in the picture. If someone has a set of these accessory wheels, and would like to get the special wrench that is stamped "FIRESTONE", send me a PM.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martynn Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 03:28 am:

Ok, Made some changes...



For lack of a better description I called the "Sharp Edge" Rims.



And these as "Rolled Rim".

Thanks guys for your input, never seen like these wheels before, my car has Hayes wheels and rims.

If this is still not right, I'll keep making changes until they are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 04:23 am:

Peter, do you know if that nut is captive in the lug on your wheel photo? I have not seen lugs/nuts like that on a T before.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 04:33 am:

Peter, do you know if that nut is captive in the lug on your wheel photo? I have not seen lugs/nuts like that on a T before.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 04:43 am:

Martynn, my apologies for mis-spelling your name. I only just realised this.

If the lugs Peter shows are Firestone lugs, they are made differently than the Kelsey type I am familiar with. Kelsey lugs appear to have been shear cut from a hot rolled U section. The cuts all vary and there is some deflection of material on each.
From Peter's photo, the lugs appear to have been bent into the U shape using flat rolled stock, which gives them a rounded corner at the bend. Your drawing could reflect this if that is the correct lug for a Firestone wheel/rim combination.

Let's hope someone can put us on the right track.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martynn Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 05:04 am:

Tis ok Allan, I was misspelling your name as Allen for some time there, besides, my name tis an odd spelling t'be sure, but they're all pronounced the same.

As soon as we find out from Peter what his lugs are I'll make the change if they are indeed Firestones or list them as an alternative if that be the case also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry & Sharon Miller, Westminster, CO on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 07:51 am:

TTT over spam


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 08:56 am:

Allan,
The nuts are not captive, I took that photo years ago when documenting all the different types. Its probably the type least seen, looking at the first drawing it appeared to be the same method used, one version of Kelsey wheel uses exactly the same method.

I like Martynn's drawing but there needs to be a close up insert or closer drawing of the actual clamping process of the rim to the felloe of all the different types. The usual ones used from the Ford bulletins does not tell the full story.

Here is a Kelsey drawing of one of their designs which shows exactly what is intended and shows both the clamping to the rim and how the lug contacts the felloe.
kelsey


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, September 11, 2018 - 10:13 am:

Peter, that is the clamping action, but I think that kind of lug has the captive nut and the lug is a forging, not the usual type we see most.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martynn Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 06:26 am:

Maybe a sectional view, because this shows the lug, but not whether the nut is captive to the lug or not. In such a drawing as I am proposing, you'll see the different parts in cross section, which may give a better representation of these wheels/rims. You could show multiple methods of how the clamping action worked. Now all I need is a few things, like what does this lug actually look like? The other's I'll make, post here and let you guys check them and tell me if I'm close or not.

These drawings I've posted so far are IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdowns), they're never meant to show how anything works, only how it goes together...to show an assemblies interaction with it's parts you need a cross section...that shows the parts as they lay in relation to the other parts they fit with. I usually make those first (because I work from top assemblies) but in this case I didn't because these assemblies caught me uncomprehending that there were more wheel/rim configurations other than Ford Standard and my Hayes....sooo, let me cobbles something together, post it here and see what flies or needs changing some.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 08:11 am:

The Kelsey sketch I posted is from 1917 and USA ( I have a Kelsey sales booklet which shows all their products including their Ford bodies.)

Australia did not get the forged lug as far as I can tell probably because of the war and the fact we got our Fords from Canada ( who seem to always have a slightly different take on a design) but someone must have wheels with this design or at least a lug.

Look forward to seeing you new drawing Martynn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 07:52 pm:

Peter's Kelsey sketch introduces another discussion point. The cross section of the rim shows an inner land on the rim as well as the usual outer land. It would appear that both lands were designed to wedge onto the rolled edges on the felloe. I have never seen this on any T wheel.

From my observations, the loose lug Kelsey rim is designed to wedge on the outer rolled edge of the felloe only. Unless the rim/felloe is worn, perhaps through being run loose, there is room between the rim and inner rolled edge of the felloe to be able to insert a credit card.

On the fixed lug rim/wheel combination, the inner land on the felloe is wider and the rim in this case wedges on this wider land. The rim lug sits off the outer face of the felloe and the credit card can be inserted between the rim and the felloe on the outside of the wheel.

Allan from down under.


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