Ok, Since I started with steel felloe's I decided to start with those first. I proposed to make mounting comparisons based upon oft posted and known rim configuration cross sections. Whilst I'm not real sure of my part number of the first one right hand side (I think that is a Kelsey 88 or 2888, because it is obviously a later than 25 style with a captive nut). I do know that the ones under it are 2845's with the Ford configurations labelled 2845C and 2845D...all of them are loose lug.

The ones on the left are fixed lug, the Hayes and the Ford version of the Hayes...these I know are right, because the felloe's and rims on my car are both Hayes and the Ford version works the same way from what I've seen of them.

When looking at the left side drawings you'll probably notice an object drawn in hidden lines just outside of the exterior of the felloe...this is the rivets that are on either side of both the Hayes and the Ford felloe's for mounting the fixed lug rims to. The rim never (even on the loose lug versions) rests or binds to the felloe's surface, instead it binds to these two rivets on either side of the Lug bolt, basically to keep it off the felloe itself. Ford never used any hardened steel bolts in his cars (probably because they were expensive) so in order to keep the torsional stress off the lug bolts, it has to be held at three separate points of contact...the felloe itself accounts for two, with the fixed and or the loose lug making the third...the stress is then transferred to the lug, not the bolt or the nut that holds it there...the binding force is always on the tire rim, not the felloe. The woods work similarly in that they have metal fixtures to act as the support surfaces (because wood just isn't that strong) and I guarantee you there is some sort of third point of contact to keep the binding force up off the wooden felloe too.



One thing I should say about Ford's T, is the further I get into looking at, puzzling over and seeing everybody's examples of what their cars have, the more impressed I become of what Henry Ford accomplished in designing the Model T. Sure he had other cars to his name before Model T and their production numbers weren't nearly as high as Model T either (mostly because they didn't have the machinery necessary then to build a car as he had when building the T). I've seen his preliminary sketches for the Model T and believe it or not, even in those very early sketches he had this car pretty well thought out. Well, it's made me appreciate my car even more today than I used to back when I got started with this hobby. Back then it was an old car, quaint looking and fun to toddle around in...but since I've started this project of mine, I am ever blown away by the amount of ingenuity and design simplicity that went into the making of this car. He accomplished exactly what he set out to do producing this car.

My two favorite quotes by Henry Ford are:

1) "Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young."

2) "Coming together is a beginning, staying together is progress, and working together is success."

There is a third one, we all know that one that talks about the building of the Model T...but I think these other two are the key to that one...because without those, he would never of been able to accomplish building the Model T.


Please as always, let me know if I've made an error or if you have other examples of other lug configurations...Ford loose lug configurations 2845C and D, are identical to Firstone's loose lugs and probably that's who made them for Ford's production line.

Keep up the good work Martynn

I defer to better knowledge than I have, but I wonder about the FORD 2845C picture as there does not seem to be any way to keep the rim from moving to the 'left' when the lug is tightened. I would think it needs to press up to 'something'?

Thanks
Adrian

Martynn, exactly where is the drawing sectioned?

is it through the center of the bolt?

I'm a bit puzzled on your Hayes and Ford fixed lug ones on the left, if the lug is part of the rim should'nt it be colored blue as it is part of the rim and on the Ford one why the white part of the rim above the lug?

And just to be a complete pest the bolts have a square under the head to fit into the square hole in the felloe to prevent the bolts turning.

Peter, the lug is really a separate piece welded to the rim...so for that reason it has a separate color not being formed from the rim. You're right though, they should all have that square...I knew I forgot something.




Adrian, I know it does seem odd, there is no indent on the rim for the loose lug to fit into either, so I assume the 4 lug bolts with the lugs in the cardinal positions from each other are enough to hold the rim in place, once the lug nuts are secured. I should make the other Kelsey where the rolled edge actually does have a small indent for the lug toe to fit into. These few are just the first go round though, there are more to follow as I figure out to which manufacturer they belong to and their part numbers.

Martynn,
Thank you for all these drawings. I screen shot them on my phone and have them handy when at a swap meet or just parts shopping. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
Drive safe and often. Dallas

Hmmm,,,,

Perhaps the rim (blue) should be more to the right, and the fellow left edge more of a curve 'upward' - similar to the Ford 2845B drawing. The rim would then press against the raised left (inside) edge of the fellow?

Cheers, Adrian

This has been very helpful and a copy is going into my reference file. Thanks Martynn!

Martynn,

Thank you for taking the time to draw up the illustrations. I'm hoping to add some comments later, but at the moment we still need to clean up some more from the hurricane thankfully turned tropical storm before it came to our area.

Note I'm 99% sure that the Kelsey rim was Ford Part # 2845 and Kelsey #88 from the beginning when Ford initially offered the Kelsey demountable wheels. I will try to look up some supporting documentation to confirm that or to correct it. Note the felloes and rims for most of the makers changed over time. There would be minor changes and other changes that warranted an update to the factory drawing.

The Kelsey captive nut and lug were replaced by the loose lug and loose nut -- less expensive to manufacture.

Additionally Peter Kable posted about 3 variations on the Hayes felloe, if I remember correctly. Once I get the yard cleaned up or if the weather is bad and I cannot work outside, I'll look for the documentation and previous postings.

Again, thank you for your great illustrations. And thanks to all of you who help make them more accurate.

Respectfully submitted,

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(Message edited by Hap_tucker on September 17, 2018)

I will have to scan some of the photo's again as they seem to have disappeared.
In the meantime a couple of things.

1. I have altered your Fixed lug Hayes slightly.
The red lug if it was cut through would be one piece as it goes over the rim crease ( do you agree?)


2 Here is the Kelsey with the rim split for the loose lug rim and Felloe actually cut through. I think all the felloe need to be a bit deeper than the drawings. You should be able to get a measurement from the photo.

Peter, the lug on the Hayes has a hole on the lug for locating on the rim, where it is welded to it...I suppose that since the weld does fell the hole in the lug, your concept would be correct.

Your Kelsey picture is very interesting, what part number is this? Is this a 2888 rim and felloe?

Martyyn,

I don't know where my observations that the rims wedge on only one side of the felloe fit in with your drawings. I will try to get some photos of them but it will be in a couple of days time when I return fro a respite stay.

Allan from down under.

Martynn,

I'm 100% sure that Ford did not use the part number 2888 for any of the Kelsey wheel, felloe, rim, bolt, lug, nut, or lug with captive nut.

I believe you have a copy of the Bruce McCalley's "Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia"? If so, it has a Comprehensive Price List in it also. It has a nice feature where you can search on words as well as numbers.

I did a search for the number 2888. It only lists the 1926-27 rear studs for the wire wheel hub with that number as a part number. And it did not have any factory numbers listed with that number.

I'm 100% sure that your drawing labeled "Kelsey 2888" is actually the very early 1919-1920 Kelsey demountable rim & wheel that came with the captive nut that was held by the lug. So while it was a loose lug Kelsey, the lug and nut were always one part # 2846 which is factory number 8829 which was used 1919-1920 and was the clamp AND nut assembly for the 2845 Kelsey rim. (Ref Bruce's Price List of Parts). Bruce also has listed the Kelsey Clamp without the captive nut as 2846B (with the B usually meaning it was a large enough change from the previous 2846 to now be sold as a 2846B).

And note the 2845 numbers are only for the RIM and not the other parts. With 2845 being the Kelsey rim. That also indicates it was the first demountable Rim that Ford gave a part number. With Hayes being 2845B. And then Ford added their own Ford 2845B that was interchangeable with the Hayes (slightly different lug attachment and shape). And then the others followed with Ford C and Ford D.

Below is that often posted illustration from the Jan 1924 Ford Service Bulletin that shows the 5 styles of demountable 30 x 3 1/2 rims that Ford USA supplied new with the cars.



Below is the Kelsey drawing from the May 15, 1920 Ford Service Bulletin. It is to scale and shows that Kelsey Lug with the captive nut.



Good news I've gotten all the debris from Florence out of our yard. I also helped cut up a fallen tree in my neighbors yard. But the weekend is over and I still haven't gotten to look at this like I had hoped to do.

Respectfully submitted,

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Am I correct that the Ford 2845B and the Hayes 2845B are interchangeable? I haven't pulled my wheels yet but I think one of the rims is different from the others.

Yes, I run a mix of the two on the Hayes felloes of my '24.

Mark, they are interchangeable your way, but I doubt Hayes rims will fit Ford wheels. There needs to be a relief in the felloe to accept the lug on the Hayes rim.

Allan from down under.

Mark, they are interchangeable your way, but I doubt Hayes rims will fit Ford wheels. There needs to be a relief in the felloe to accept the lug on the Hayes rim.

Allan from down under.

Martynn : Do you know to with Company these belong?
They are on our 1923 Roadster.


Toon

Toon,

"IF" repeat "IF" they originally came on a USA Model T Ford -- 1923 model year car they would be part number 2846C designed to fit the Ford 2845C rim that was produced for Ford by Firestone, Cleveland and possibly others (such as Motor Wheel etc.) If you provide measurements that could be helpful.

You didn't mention in this post if the 1923 is a USA produced car, English produced car, assembled in Denmark car etc. Where it was assembled may also have an impact on what type of wheel, rim, & lug were used etc.

The 2845C rim is shown below (along with a 2845D rim). Note that both of those were loose lug rims and both of those had a male lug around the valve stem that fit into a female oval slot in the felloe of the wheel. That kept the rim from rotating on the felloe and that prevented it from cutting the valve stem.

It is important to have a compatible set of rims, lugs, and felloes. Because the rims are 30 x 3 1/2 they will go onto just about any felloe that is set up for the 30 x 3 1/2 rim. But if you mount the 2845C rim or the 2845D rim onto a 1919-1923 Hayes, or Ford or Kelsey felloe -- they probably do NOT have the receptical in the felloe to keep the rim from rotating. Probably not critical on a front wheel (no brakes etc.) but will shear off the valve stem on a rear wheel.

Below are some photos to help illustrate that:




(Thank you Steve Shelton for the rim photos above.)

From the 1926 price list of parts below is shown the 2846C illustration (caution -- the folks printing the Price List of Parts often did not know what the parts were -- but they were printers. Occasionally they have the wrong part shown or the labels wrong. In this case I think they are correct.)



And where I still have the least amount of documentation and understanding is on the felloes. Below are two felloes. The one with the cup for the 2846C lug to fit into would probably work but I don't know if it is for a 2845C rim or 2845D rim or both. Royce posted some photos showing that style rim used with a 2845D rim and removable lug and loose lug nut. But that is all I have concerning that the 2845D rim fits it. And I know that Steve Shelton ran the 2845C rim on that felloe. But I don't have any Ford documentation on it. I would welcome other information.




Toon -- please let us know what type of felloe and rim you have. Also where your car was manufactured etc.

Respectfully submitted,

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Hap ; Our Model T must be USA made , I bought them in OHIO .
We have the 4845 D rim and the wheels are with the cup for the Valve stem .
Toon

Hmm, my car has 2845D wheels on the rear...I could never figure out what that cup on the valve stem hole was for, but since my tubes all have metal stems didn't think much about it.

On the front I've got Hayes 2845B wheels, but my rims are all Hayes rims.

OK, how can you tell whether a wheel that accepts a 2845B type rim is Hayes or Ford without removing the rim? Also, if I understand correctly a Hayes will accept a Ford rim but not vice-versa, correct?

I have to replace a tube, I swapped for the spare Sunday, but didn't pay any attention to the wheel.
When I get the tube, I'll take some pictures.
I would like to know what I have now, not sure if they are 24 or 26.

Tim, I believe you are correct. The Hayes rim with its fixed lugs, has a foot on the lug which extends in over the outer edge of the felloe. This means the felloe has to have a relief to allow this foot to go over the outside edge. On my Hayes wire wheels with the turned in outer edge, this rolled edge has a depressed area to allow the lug to go over it. On some US production wheels, with which I am not familiar, there is no rolled outer edge, and a notch is cut into the felloe to allow the lug foot to clear.
This means Hayes rims will only fit Hayes wheels, whereas Ford rims will also fit Hayes wheels.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

Loose lug rims, those with no lugs welded/fixed to the rim, need a method to stop the rim from rotating on the felloe if the lugs are not tight. The felloe with the cup around the valve stem needs the rim with the smaller flange around the valve, the flange fitting inside the felloe cup so the rim cannot rotate on the felloe.

The Kelsey 88 has a bridging lug which sits inside the felloe, going over the bolt nearest the valve. This bridging lug serves the same purpose, stooping the rim rotating on the felloe.

In my experience, any combination of loose lug rim and felloe not having a positive means of preventing the rim from rotating on the felloe is courting real problems. As an example, the rim with collar around the valve stem, fitted to a Kelsey felloe, has no positive stop. There is a chance such a rim could at least move and shear off a valve stem. At worst, such a combination on a rear wheel could lead to loss of brakes.

Some combinations are safe. Some combinations will work. Some can be dangerous.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

Allan -- my hypothesis (GUESS) is that the Hayes supplied wheels that took the Hayes 2845B fixed lug rim and the Ford supplied wheels that took the Ford 2845B fixed lug rims are interchangeable with each other. Note the Ford wheels and Ford 2845B fixed lug rims may have been manufactured for Ford by Cleveland, Firestone and possibly Motor Wheel or others. Or it is possible that Ford Motor Company tooled up to make the wheels. For the loose lug Ford wheels there is documentation that clearly states Cleveland, Firestone and possible Motor Wheel or others supplied them to Ford Motor Company.


Rationale:

The Jan 1924 Ford Service bulletin has the illustration of the rims we have often seen:



But it also includes the paragraph below explaining the illustration:



Note it confirms that the Ford 2845B can be used on the Hayes supplied wheel. But it also states,

"Approximately 100,000 rims similar to the 2845B were used on the first wheels manufactured by the Ford Motor Company and replacement of these rims can be taken car of by using the 2845B Hayes or Ford rim."

A trip to the Benson Ford Archives would probably clear this up for USA produced cars. It is on my long term list of items to do.

Again, there are several variations on the Hayes and Kelsey wheels and rims. And Ford USA in a letter to the Ford branches dated March 7, 1924, announced that "ALL" the wheel and rim suppliers would soon be making the same style wheel and rim. So that all the parts would interchange between them. See: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels search for March 7 and it will quickly take you there. It says in part:

"The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the ‘attached lug’ type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone.
“This arrangement will make it possible to report front demountable wheels as one item, rear demountable wheels as one item and T-8774 rims as one item. The bolts and nuts are also interchangeable…This arrangement will eliminate the necessity of carrying the stocks in your plant separately, i.e., when you receive a carload from Kelsey you can unload it and put material in the same pile with Hayes or Ford wheels and the rims with Hayes, Cleveland or Firestone rims."

The "note and illustration" that was in the Jan 1924 Service bulletin appeared 2 months before this announcement. So I believe it is referring to the wheels that had already been produced and not the ones that would soon be going into production.

More food for thought.

And we would welcome any comments/photos/etc. that could help clarify what did or did not happen.

Note -- favor to ask -- there is a very original Centerdoor sedan at the Model T Ford Club of America Museum. It has the loose lugs and from memory (sorry -- I don't know where I put the photos...) it has the 2845C rims with the lug with the embedded nut on all 4 wheels. It would be helpful if someone could confirm that and if they could obtain permission to remove a wheel and look for a manufacture's marking on the fellow and the rim. And if they could confirm the general shape of the fellow. Both sides bent over or only the inside side bent over and the outside straight up etc.

Respectfully submitted,

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Tim,

Sorry I don't have a nice clean answer for your question. My current guess is the Hayes style rim will fit several different wheels successfully. I.e. those with the recess for the Hayes' foot on the lug to fit through so it does NOT jam the rim and prevent it from going all the way on and seating on the inner flange of the wheel.

Note there are a few postings where folks have said they took a Kelsey loose lug wheel -- dented the felloe so the Hayes foot would not bind on the outer flange before it seated on the inner flange of the felloe. Ford says don't do that -- see the remarks in the May 15, 1920 Ford Service Bulletin below:



But a few posters on the forum have said it worked OK for them. At this point I would recommend obtaining the felloes that would accept the same style rim on all four wheels so a single spare would work well on any wheel.

Observation -- there have been a few folks that when they had their first flat discovered that the spare rim they were carrying did NOT fit the wheel that had the flat.

Respectfully submitted,

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Hap, I would agree that the Ford 2845B rim is interchangeable with either Hayes supplied wheels or Ford wheels.
However, the 2458B Hayes rim will not fit a Ford wheel, unless the felloe edge is dented in to accommodate the foot on the Hayes lug, a practice the Ford service bulletins discourage.

They are interchangeable one way, but not the other.

Allan from down under.

Allan,

You may well be correct. Do you happen to know which Ford Service bulletin or other documentation mentions " ...the 2458B Hayes rim will not fit a Ford wheel, unless the felloe edge is dented in to accommodate the foot on the Hayes lug, a practice the Ford service bulletins discourage."

For easy reference, I have reposted in this posting the Jan 1924 paragraph from the Ford Service Bulletin that was just posted above. As I read the sentence from it that says:

"Approximately 100,000 rims similar to the 2845B were used on the first wheels manufactured by the Ford Motor Company and replacement of these rims can be taken car of by using the 2845B Hayes or Ford rim."

I believe that says the 2845B Hayes will fit those 100,000 Ford wheels. Of course it might be printed wrong. I love the 1906ish photo of the Model N engine that is printed "reversed negative" in one of the sales brochures. It makes the manifolds appear to be on the same side as a Model T engine rather than the other side.



But assuming that what they said is correct, and that I am understanding it correctly (it won't be the first or last time I've missed the obvious. By the way - thank you to the forum members for gently pointing out when I'm seeing something wrong or reading something incorrectly. I really do want to better document how things really occurred when we can do that and to document that it is still debated and not confirmed one way or the other if that is the case.

There is still so much more information to document and so many other "to do items" that are higher up on my list of "things to do today." But I really do believe our understanding of the wheels and rims used by Ford USA as well as Canada, England, and Argentina is better today than 20 years ago.

Anyway, please take one more look at that paragraph and let me know if you want me to put you down as saying the fixed lug Hayes 2845B will or will not fit those 100,000 Ford wheels that were designed for the fixed lug Ford 2845B rim. Or some other position such as "not sure" or "the ones I've seen in Australia say they won't fit" etc. I value your insights and inputs and thank you for your support to our hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

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(Message edited by hap_tucker on September 26, 2018)