A Call For HCCT Photos and Information

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: A Call For HCCT Photos and Information
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Tuesday, September 18, 2018 - 03:46 pm:

Hello To All.

I am putting together a book about the HCCT (Hand Cranked Coil Tester).
I think it is time that we gather our collective HCCT knowledge and record it for future generations of Model T enthusiasts.

I am looking for photos, advertising materials and any information on the wide variety of HCCTs that were made over the years.

I am planning sections on the following :
History
Use
Various HCCT models from various Manufacturers
Home Made HCCTs
Meters
I am open to suggestions for other topics.
Credit will be given to the contributor for any materials used.

If you have an unrestored, restored, homemade, unusual or odd HCCT please let me know about it.

I am also very interested in any HCCTs that are in other countries or any foreign version of the HCCT.

I have set up a special email account for your input at : HCCT.BOOK@gmail.com.

At this time, the distribution method of the book has not been determined.
There are a number of possibilities and all will be carefully considered when the time comes.

I will be posting this notice on several web sites to get the word out.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Bob Cascisa
A.K.A. Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wilson, Saint John NB, Canada on Tuesday, September 18, 2018 - 07:42 pm:

email sent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Tuesday, September 18, 2018 - 09:20 pm:

Thanks Dave.

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Tuesday, September 18, 2018 - 09:54 pm:

Hi Bob,

I'll try to get some decent pictures of mine and get them to you soon. Good luck with your project. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Tuesday, September 18, 2018 - 11:31 pm:

I would consider any book on the HCCT incomplete if it did not contain input from John Regan and Ron Patterson, if not as co-authors certainly as peer reviewers. Respectfully, jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Tuesday, September 18, 2018 - 11:54 pm:

Thanks Bill.

James, This book will be "complete".

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 03:54 am:

I will send you an email when I get back to my PC.
Meanwhile here's a picture of my coil tester. Allen manufacturing, Detroit...IIRC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 07:35 am:

Bob,

I'll try to remember to go out and take some pics of mine and send them to you tonight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 08:19 am:

Looking forward to your book, Bob. From what little I know, I believe mine is a Ford made example, before they turned it over to Fairbanks. It is very original, including the dark green paint finish. A good T friend recently used it to go through a whole bunch of coils. When I get your book, Iíll finally know what I really have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dominic Denio in TN on Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 08:38 am:

Bob,

First of all thanks for taking on this project and your restoration of my HCCT meter. May I suggest you give us guidelines of what types of photos you are looking for. (eg. front view, 45 degree side view, rear view, file format, resolution of image, clutter free, background color or other issue. These standards could provide uniformity and a more professional look to the final publication. When you reply I will photo my HCCT and send them your way. Just my 2 cents.
Dom Denio


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 11:14 am:

Bob. Your address HCCT.BOOK@gmail.com doesn't work for me ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - 11:55 am:

Dave Hanlon - I send you a PM.

Dominic Denio - Thank you for your comments - they are in line with my intentions.
I am in the initial draft stage of the book.
These initial photos will will provide a base for listing the many different manufacturers and variations of HCCTs.
A frontal or perspective view will be fine for now but I will ask for more posed and detailed photos of HCCTs we put in the book.
These machines are heavy - I don't want anyone to get hurt for the sake of this book.

It is our goal to provide as comprehensive a book as I can with as much of the tribal knowledge from owners and experts for future generations.

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Danmark on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 07:44 am:

Do not forget HCCTs from abroad. I have one of a regular type but with a DANISH meter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Coastal North Carolina on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 08:23 am:

Mine is a lot like Timís except the meter is a different make, it has a double stack field coil, and the spark ring is a very plain casting. Each casting has a part number that reads as ďM35-xxĒ

I restored this unit around 1983 after finding it cheap at a car flea market, it was heavy and the seller didnít want to move it again. Of course it didnít hurt that he had no clue what it was, his specialty was 50ís Fords...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Coastal North Carolina on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 08:24 am:

Mine is a lot like Timís except the meter is a different make, it has a double stack field coil, and the spark ring is a very plain casting. Each casting has a part number that reads as ďM35-xxĒ

I restored this unit around 1983 after finding it cheap at a car flea market, it was heavy and the seller didnít want to move it again. Of course it didnít hurt that he had no clue what it was, his specialty was 50ís Fords...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Coastal North Carolina on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 08:27 am:

Sorry, I hate when that happens...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 09:50 am:

This one is the granddaddy of them all:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 11:43 am:

Mark does this help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 12:14 pm:

These are way cool, I had only seen one other than mine before this thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 12:31 pm:

Michael - HCCTs are known to exist in Europe, South America and Australia/New Zealand. I will contact you directly about your HCCT.

Mark, Yours has an unusual spark ring. Are there any manufacturers markings on it?

Eric - I will be contacting you about that one.

This is great!! Thanks to all for posting.
As you can see, there is much to be learned about HCCTs.


Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 01:47 pm:

Here is a photo of my Allen Electric HCCT. This unit has the internal inductor necessary for testing Magneto magnetic field strength.

Allen Electric HCCT Owned by Mike Kossor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 04:28 pm:

Original motorized K.R.Wilson.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 05:15 pm:

Mikeís photo show the very best tool ever made for adjusting the Model T coil. I use my Allen Electric unit regularly. My other HCCTs are simply display pieces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 05:21 pm:

Bob,
Iíll get you whatever photos you want of the old Ford Z tester. It is truly unique. There is a hand crank and belt pulley on the back, and there is no mount for a meter. Ron told me that there is a photo somewhere of it, or one identical to it, in use at the Ford or KW plant, with a wall mounted meter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Danmark on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 05:25 pm:

My HCCT looks like most:

until you look closer to the instrument:

Instrument made by danish instrumentmaker Helweg-Mikkelsen with danish text.
Probably sold as a kit by W. LÝwener A/S who sold other tools to Ford and other marks garages.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 06:13 pm:

Bob's sure got his hands full with this project. So many of the HCCTs out there appear to be clones of one another, that sorting out which company is responsible for each design will be difficult. Michael's HCCT looks just like the K.R. Wilson testers that I've seen. In fact, I've seen that design with a few different name on it. As Ron has pointed out in the past, Ford only made these as Z tools for a short time, before licensing out the whole thing to Fairbanks-Morse. I applaud Bob for the effort, and I look forward to reading his book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Coastal North Carolina on Friday, September 21, 2018 - 06:37 am:

Bob, the ring on my unit has the cast in part number ďM35-17AĒ which matches the other casting number sequences of the rest of the unit. It is the original ring for it, and having a double stack field coil I believe itís an early one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Friday, September 21, 2018 - 07:57 pm:

An ELMCO:
hcct1
hcct2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Dowell in Michigan Thumb on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 12:57 pm:

Does anyone have a schematic with correct wire colors. I'm rebuilding two now.
Brian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 01:34 pm:

Here is a general schematic for the HCCT.
To the best of my knowledge, there is very little original detailed information available about HCCT construction.
What make of HCCT are you restoring?

Be_Zero_Be

application/pdf
_HCCT SCHEMATIC - Rev C.pdf (104.0 k)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 01:43 pm:

Great schematic Bob, thank you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 02:28 pm:

Clicking this link will give your more pictures than you can imagine.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=hcct+site:www.mtfca.com&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X &ved=0ahUKEwjy8qq2ns_dAhWCI3wKHTvoD2UQ_AUIDygC&biw=1152&bih=655

Chris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 03:10 pm:

Is the ammeter drawn in the correct spot ? I always understood that it would be in series between mag output and load (coil). Voltmeters are grounded on one leg.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 03:29 pm:

Looking over the diagram, noticed the similarity of the connection from the magneto to an inductor to the AC ammeter is similar to that of the infamous St. Louis Electric Works Magneto Tester of 1916.

(In the arena of experimenting and improvising, I posted the following on the Forum Monday, November 10, 2014 - 11:24 am:

""(I) Finished the Magneto Current Tester (Ampere meter). There has been past discussion about measuring the voltage and amperage out put of the magneto. The main interest that I have is amperage at cranking speed. According to the notes from Ford Service Bulletin for 1919 at 200 rpm the output voltage is 5-volt AC and 6.1 amperes AC. Measuring voltage is relative easy, but to measure amperage one needs something similar to the St Louis Electrical Works magneto tester. The voltage can be measured with any AC voltmeter. But measuring the amperage has been a challenge. Tom Carnegie published "A Poor Man's Mag Tester" based on the St Louis Electrical Works magneto tester. I was looking for a more period instrument.

I built an amperage tester based on a swap met 10 Amp Jewell Portable AC Meter ($20.00) and a coil core from Snyders ($19.25). In the diagram found in Dykes the St Louis meter used a "reactance coil" to provide a constant current. So why did I decide to use the coil from Snyders as a reactance coil? According to a 1920's publication, Automobile Catechism, a reactance coil is a kick coil. And the kick coil is a kind of spark-coil used for low-tension (make and break) ignition when electrical current is supplied by a battery. Based on the description found in the text the coil from Snyders is a reactance coil.

I have provided a diagram of the finished circuit. The black box contains both a one-ohm resister and the reactance coil. Coil has a resistance of .7 ohms. The meter with shut is for 10 amperes ac."" (note: Inductors do not behave the same as resistors. DC current resistance. AC Current inductance.)

I am not going to make any statement about how it works for me. I let this up to those who enjoy a challenge.

If I remember my history of design for the magneto, the re-engineering of the magneto pick-up from 1914/1915 and 1915/1916 is one reason the St Louis Magneto tester indicates for 1914 and 1915. There was a significant improvement or amperage/voltage in the later magnetos (1915).)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 06:20 pm:

The ammeter is in series


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 09:44 pm:

So how does ammeter check the 1.2 or 1.3 amps to the coil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Saturday, September 22, 2018 - 10:02 pm:

Current from Mag ring terminal goes thru primary of spark coil thru the ammeter to ground. The ammeter displays the current magnitude. jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Sunday, September 23, 2018 - 09:14 am:

The following Hagerty article, simple, but gives an explanation on measuring current (amperage). An analogue meter can be used in place of a digital meter if one is available.
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/Articles/2017/07/05/measuring-current


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Sunday, September 23, 2018 - 12:13 pm:

George, Regarding magneto current measurement using the St. Louis Magneto tester, I noted in your previous post about making your own "The main interest that I have is amperage at cranking speed."

The magneto output below 300RPM is non-linear and will skew the results. Above 450 RPM, the average RMS current will remain essentially constant value when current is measured with inductive load provided the inductor properties remain linear (no core saturation). The specific value of RMS current will depend upon the inductance of the load coil and is a direct indication of magneto magnetic field strength independent of engine speed.

The St. Louis Magneto Tester instructions state to run the car at moderate speed when testing the magneto to avoid the non-linearity at low engine speed (cranking speed). The results will not be an accurate indication of magneto field strength.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Sunday, September 23, 2018 - 03:12 pm:

Chris - Thanks for the link - it is a real time saver.

Does anyone have any catalog or brochure information on HCCTs from :

Allen
KR Wilson
Service Products
Service Station Equipment
Weidenhoff
ELMCO (Electric Machine Company)

or any other original information.

Thanks.
Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Monday, September 24, 2018 - 07:58 pm:

Just a note: The coil tester is currently referred to as a Hand Crank Coil Tester. The literature search from the 1920's refer to such a device as a (Ford) "coil unit and magneto test stand."

The M-35 is a Fairbanks coil unit and magneto test stand (circa 1921).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 01:09 pm:

George,

You are right but "FCU & MTS" just doesn't sound right. LOL :-)

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Sanford - Lucas, TX on Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 06:14 pm:

FWIW, A friend has an HCCT that allows you to remove and replace the mag ring easily. Don't remember the manufacturer. This allows you to test your specific mag ring as well as coils. Unfortunately for me, my HCCT is not made that way.

Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 06:39 pm:

Dennis,
The Manual for one HCCT/ states that to test the magneto it is not necessary to remove the magneto from the car.

The magneto is connected to the coil unit and magneto test stand with a double strand of insulated wire, start the motor after connecting to the magneto pole. The test stand meter should read .8 or greater if the magneto is "strong."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - 01:39 pm:

Dennis,
I believe that is an Allen HCCT.
I think this was mentioned in an earlier thread about HCCTs.

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Sanford - Lucas, TX on Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - 04:40 pm:

Bob, I believe it is an Allen HCCT. I failed to mention that you can easily install both a different mag ring and a different flywheel using the "knock off" wing nuts. This provides the ability to test individual mag rings and individual flywheels before installing in an engine rebuild. The owner says it takes less than 10 minutes to swap mag rings and flywheels. This saved an extensive engine rebuild after recently recharged magnets had been installed with incorrect polarity.

I will respond to you PM with contact information for the owner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Sanford - Lucas, TX on Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - 04:50 pm:

Bob, I believe it is an Allen HCCT. I failed to mention that you can easily install both a different mag ring and a different flywheel using the "knock off" wing nuts. This provides the ability to test individual mag rings and individual flywheels before installing in an engine rebuild. The owner says it takes less than 10 minutes to swap mag rings and flywheels. This saved an extensive engine rebuild after recently recharged magnets had been installed with incorrect polarity.

I will respond to you PM with contact information for the owner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - 06:16 pm:

Thanks Dennis

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randall Strickland, Lambsburg Va on Thursday, September 27, 2018 - 10:27 am:

no name but appears to be factory made


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Thursday, September 27, 2018 - 11:48 am:

Randall,
I sent you a PM.
That is a unique HCCT.

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele on Thursday, September 27, 2018 - 12:24 pm:

Bob attached are pictures of an original Ford coil tester. When Ford made them they had a part number stamped on the base, 18-Z-245. I was told that Ford made 1700-1800 before they passed production off, but I have no way to verify that. I do know that the Ford HCCT's are hard to find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele on Thursday, September 27, 2018 - 12:26 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Thursday, September 27, 2018 - 04:28 pm:

John,
That's a nice original Ford HCCT.
You are correct about Ford only making one production run of the HCCT.

This is from Ford Service Bulletin #21, Feb 1, 1920.



Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Thursday, September 27, 2018 - 08:48 pm:

I am not sure if this is a Ford unit or not, but it is a real gem that was professionally restored by Brent Mize. When I saw it, I had to have it. It looks right at home sitting on a Circa 1919 Snap-On tool box :-)

hcct


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