To weld, or not to weld?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: To weld, or not to weld?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 06:24 pm:

Hi folks. Iíve run into a snag while trying to sort out the front end on our Ď16 runabout. It appears someone, long ago, stuck a washer inside the outer bearing in BOTH front hubs. I now have fairly deep grooves cut in the threads on both spindles. The question is, can I weld this up and retread it without causing the ends on the spindles to become brittle and possible fail? My knowledge of how these things were treated at the factory (and my knowledge of metallurgy in general) is not sufficient for me to determine whether or not this is a safe repair procedure. Thanks for your thoughts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry K. Lee on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 06:29 pm:

Tyler,

For safety reasons and the availability of replacement parts I would not advise it. For what it is worth.

Hank in Tin-A-See


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 06:30 pm:

Spindle damage


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 06:32 pm:

Tyler,
It might be best to show us a photo on this to see if something else is going on. The thread dose have a groove and a tab washer on the outer bearing + nut and lock nut.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 06:36 pm:

Now I see, No I wouldn't weld it, stubs for a 16 maybe a little harder to find but later ones not so, for your own safety find some good ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:11 pm:

Thanks. That was my gut feeling. We may weld them up and put them on the lathe just for fun. I will hunt some serviceable originals to put on the car. It appears that Langís has some for sale.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:17 pm:

Any attempt to weld any spindle needs to be done by an expert welder that KNOWS the metallurgy!
I will admit, that I have filled a couple very minor wear spots in early spindles with braze, and then touched up the threads. However, any spindle cut even half as deep as that one I wouldn't consider fixing. Even for an early T, I wouldn't try it. For a '12 to '18, if I couldn't easily get a correct spindle, I would take a good common later one. A little filling and trimming on the flats and top and bottom of the spindle, and it would take an expert to see the difference. But I have never yet done that either myself. So far, I have always been able to get a good early one. The other option, just use a good later one as they are. Most people don't care that much. I see lots of later ones on brass era Ts! Even on HCCA meets.
And SAFETY is the important consideration!

One last thought to consider. A spindle cut as deeply as the one you show? Even cut only half that much? Could very likely have already begun to fracture in the remaining area opposite the cut. Any repair (even for an extremely rare and valuable brass era non-Ford spindle) should be cut inward about an inch or two and the whole end replaced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:21 pm:

I wouldn't even repair that one for kicks and giggles. It could get mixed in with other parts and used by someone not looking closely at it.

Or? Fix it for fun, but then cut it off about an inch inboard?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:27 pm:

It would great if you could save those original spindles. Before giving up, I would inquire and see if I could find someone, such as a metallurgist who was familiar with alloys and heat treating steel to the correct temper through quenching in oil.

I often watch the show, ďForged in FireĒ in which contestants compete to create the best knives or swords. During the show, they show these contestants creating different alloys that have a combination of flexibility and hardness and forging a blade. One of the most important steps is the temper of the blade by heating and quenching in oil.

Perhaps you could find a blacksmith, metalworker, or teacher, such as in a technical school or college on this order who has a sense for this type of work and the experience necessary to accomplish it. Steel is tempered everyday in the manufacture of products, so there is no mystery to it, but experience is needed to do it and Iím sure it can be done. You just need to find the person to do it.

Iím just saying, donít give up too quickly, if the possibility exists that you can salvage original Model T parts that have been on the same car since it rolled off the assembly line over a century ago, instead of taking the easy way out and replacing repairable parts with new parts that may not be as good as the original. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:38 pm:

Jim, Iím fairly certain those spindles have been on the car since April, 2016. Itís a very original car, down to tattered remnants of the original upholstery and a considerable amount of original paint. I will keep them whether I run replacements on the car or not. All these old cars tell a story as you begin to bring them back to life. This one has had over a century of ďmake doĒ repairs. To me, thatís a big part of the fun in working on a Model T!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Thompson Graham NC on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:51 pm:

I weld stuff more critical than that without worry
That's what welding is for. It's not holding the weight just the side load just my thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kenneth w delong on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:52 pm:

Replace that junk!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Logansport Indiana on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:56 pm:

I would not want that on my car if you gave it to me for free AND had it fixed by an "expert"

Just my opinion but it would be much better to find an original and the cost will be less in the long run. If that ends up on a car and fails because of the repair, it could cost someone their life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 07:59 pm:

This shouldn't even be a question. Replace them and don't look back.

Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Fischer - Arroyo Grande, CA on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:15 pm:

There is a metallurgist on the forum (forgot his name). I sure wish he would chime in here.

But lacking his expertise, I'll tell you what my background tells me. Those parts appear to have been originally forgings, or perhaps made from bar stock. Forged parts, as opposed to castings, have a well organized grain structure. The grain direction is chosen for maximum strength and ductility in a desired load direction.

Welding is more like a casting; it's just a glob of liquid metal that is allowed to cool and solidify. No particular grain direction. So castings propagate cracking far faster than forgings. Think of a weld repair on a forging as a butt glued wooden sailboat mast. Even with the very best glue, the glued mast will fail far sooner than the rest of the structure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Thompson Graham NC on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:20 pm:

Well I agree if the part is easy to get replace it. But a proper weld made by a trained welder is not glue.philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:21 pm:

Iíll send you a nice pair for the cost of shipping, if you promise to throw that one away, please. Just because something can be done, doesnít mean it should be done, Drop me a line if you want the free pair, tmorsher@icloud.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Thompson Graham NC on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:23 pm:

You can't beat that offer. Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore, "Island City" MI on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:23 pm:

Those are really bad. I would put them in a vice and cut the the other half off and throw them into the nearest river or bury them in the yard. They are not safely repairable.

Making a knife or sword on "forged in fire" is where if breaks while chopping coconuts, bamboo or cow legs you are asked to leave. If your spindle breaks off you are in the ditch or the oncoming lane.

Those parts have run way over their useful time and are done. It is time for replacement and not repair. Repair will be much more expensive than replacement and an original part will be better.

Please destroy those parts so you or nobody else gets hurt.

Tim Moore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:29 pm:

Tim, thank you. That is an offer I cannot refuse. I will pass the kindness forward when the opportunity arises! Thanks for all the input everyone. I will keep you posted as we continue to tear down and refurbish the car. Iíll try to get some pictures to post if its current condition. Iím sure we will run into all kinds of interesting repairs as we go!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:34 pm:

With out going into the science and complicate things I go simple.
The spindles would be vanadium steel just like your modern tools, they don't bend or break easily, run a track of weld across a 40% cut on a socket bar and then see what happens under a strain! the heat from a weld would revert the steel to a mild steel, at best it would bend, at worst with mild meeting vanadium it would snap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:41 pm:

I have been a Boilermaker construction welder for over 30 years, I have thousands of hours under the hood. I have many welds on running nuclear reactors and high pressure steam boilers. . With all that said, I would not attempt to weld it.

Yes, that piece is weldable, and it is possible to make it as good as new. But only with a trained welder, using the correct rods, following the proper welding procedure, in a perfect weld position, with the proper prep work. Then with the proper X-ray examination followed by the proper heat treat/stress reliving. Only then would I use it. But they are too plentiful to need to attempt it.

As mentioned above, cut it up, Its not worth the risk ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:46 pm:

Sound advice. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Thompson Graham NC on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 08:46 pm:

Just what I said it could be repaired if needed
Replaced if possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 09:04 pm:

I don't have near the experience that Donnie has, but I have been a welder/fabricator for most of my adult life and I wouldn't even consider welding that. I've seen too many repairs that failed. At best, it's a wall hanger, but even at that someone in the future might try to weld it. Cut it up or make a yard ornament out of it. :-) JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore, "Island City" MI on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 09:06 pm:

A complete unit will always be stronger than a repaired component with dissimilar material. Repaired material will always have a fracture or bend line (that will fracture).

Replacement is the only wise option here. Tim Morsher has made the offer and I hope he requires you to first send the dangerous parts for destruction.

This is a post where someone could be driving the car could be killed. Cut to the chase and don't listen to the "experts", just remove and replace.

Tim Moore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 09:20 pm:

Not every one reads all threads over the years and also new readers etc, but it doesn't hurt to re-run points that have been beat do death before.
Tyler's thread is a very valid one and it doen't hurt for re-fresher on consequences of bad repairs.

A cut and shut of a T axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 10:06 pm:

Just for giggles, hereís another fine depression-era repair on our car. There is a groove filed into the head bolt to ďcradleĒ the repair bolt. Itís really a thing of beauty! :-) Thanks again to Mike Bird for selling me a nice low head for the car. Broken ear


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 10:13 pm:

Frank, that is most certainly a situation we should all try our best to avoid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 11:43 pm:

Plenty of spindles out there find replacements
Arms unbolt and if your running roller bearing those race drive off.
Dont weld them right youl make them brittle and break


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Sunday, September 30, 2018 - 11:55 pm:

I am well known for making worn or damaged parts work again. Folks on this website cringe at my spoke shimmed wheels. Looking at those spindles I wouldnít even think of repair. Any time or money spent on these spindles could be better spent on obtaining replacements or invested in your medical expense saving account to help out if you continue to use these. Of course if you die because of these spindles the money wonít matter to you

IMHO, TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, October 01, 2018 - 02:53 am:

Now, THAT head? I would repair myself!

I just chimed in to say that if Donnie Brown says uh uh don't do it! Listen to him. He knows more about welding important stuff than almost any ten of us mere mortals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Grisbee---Cheyenne Wyo on Monday, October 01, 2018 - 11:38 am:

I've mentioned this before here but may be worth it again. A fellow here has a 1908 one cyl Cadillac touring car and was popping along at only 15 or 20 miles an hour. The locking devise that held the right spindle nut broke,it came off along with the wheel. The axle end dug into the pavement and the car came to a sudden stop throwing everyone except the driver over the front end. His wife got a broken leg and other injuries and an old fellow in the back seat got head injuries. It's not worth it,don't take the chance,listen to the guys here telling you to replace them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, October 01, 2018 - 03:00 pm:

Those spindles are to plentiful to try to repair one in that condition. Probably wouldn't hurt to go through the whole front end. It probably needs to be gone through.
If that spindle is in that shape replace both and re bush the front end.
You'll be glad you did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyler on Monday, October 01, 2018 - 05:57 pm:

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I donít think saving these parts is feasible. The original spindles are going in the scrap pile. I am well aware of the consequences of losing a wheel - especially on the front end. John, we are going to be rebuilding the whole front end (and the rest of the drive train) before we try to drive the car. It has been in a barn and off the road for several decades. So, we are starting with the front axle and working our way back. Iíll try to post some pictures as we move along. Maybe I should start a new thread and formally introduce the car and chronicle the ďunearthingĒ process.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Monday, October 01, 2018 - 06:19 pm:

i wouldn't throw them away, not if you can re-purpose them for something else. Art even. Keep the arms if you can, i never seem to find matching pairs of arms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, October 01, 2018 - 07:28 pm:

I fix alot of stuff that shouldn't be but if I fixed those it would be a yard trailer or something along that line.That metal has to strong.


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