How Much Can You Do and Still Call It Original?

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: How Much Can You Do and Still Call It Original?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lyndon Moore on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 10:08 am:

I have been a member of the T club since 2007. But just this summer started looking at the Forum. I know the final decision is up to me. But I would like to know if there is any rules or regulations on how much you can do to your car and still call it an original. I realize that the mechanical parts you can rebuild because all your work is interior. You cannot see what you have done. I have a really nice 1915 touring. What I am concerned with is the paint. It is in remarkably great shape. At the bottom of the cowl, there is some bubbling of rust. If it is cleaned off, would probably be some small pinholes. I would kinda like to do something with that. The LF fender was exposed to some weather plus it has some dents in it. The firewall is dry rotted where the steering column is not real stable. But the paint, overall, still has enough gloss that I think I could match it pretty good and still not bring it to a shine. I don't have any good pictures to show, but pictures are very forgiving and makes the car look better. This car has had one top put on it, probably in the 40's. The interior is plenty good, in my opinion. Just don't want to do something that would take away from its "original" car status.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Codman on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 10:16 am:

I would consider doing a as close to factory repair to the body as maintenance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 10:36 am:

"....Just don't want to do something that would take away from its "original" car status."

Then leave it alone, cosmetically. Each thing you do, takes it one step farther away from being original. Clearly, there are some things you have to do in order to drive it. But the cosmetics are different.. you don't have to do anything to those details in order to make it functional.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 10:38 am:

If it looks like a T, drives like a T, sounds like a T and smells like a T, then, it is a T.

You are very fortunate to have so many original parts such as the firewall and original paint. If replacing a rotten firewall or applying new paint negated a T from being original, then the vast majority of T’s would not qualify.

It is okay to repair or replace rotten, broken or worn out parts as long as they are proper for the year of your T. Even adding period accessories that were so prevalent back then, such as a speedometer, motometer, clock, or wolf whistle will not keep it from being considered original as long as it is accurate for the year and is something that an original owner from that era might have added.

If I were you, I would go ahead and do the cosmetic work you desire, while trying to maintain as much that is original to the car as you can, and still be safe. Try and repair the dents without removing the paint and take a body part to a professional auto paint supply place, such as CARS, to match up the paint and recommend a compatable replacement. The soft wood on your firewall can be restored with a product called LiquidWood from Abatron (www.abatron.com). It is a 2 part epoxy that when mixed together creates an thin, clear, light amber epoxy with the consistency of water that, when applied to soft wood with a paint brush, sinks deep into the wood. After several hours, it cures to a very hard plastic, which provides strength and stability to the wood. If you use it, just be sure to keep applying it until the wood will accept no more, so it will attain its’ maximum depth iton to wood, for once it cures, you will not be able to apply any more. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 10:42 am:

PS. Paint or touch up only that which is affiliated with the dent and rust pit repairs. Try not to paint over any of the original paint that is left if it can be avoided. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 10:46 am:

My OP; Repair it mechanically to make safe, replace what is really needed to be replace and stabilize/conserve it as is. You have to make, as you said, the final decision. I think a well preserved car is more interesting then one that is done wrong or like every other one. There is nothing wrong with restoring a car back to factory, your choice. How deep your pockets are or how much time you want to spend on the project is a factor. Me, I want to drive my cars, my pockets are not deep so I maintain mine and enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lyndon Moore on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 10:54 am:

Jim, I looked at the abatron site. This sounds interesting. What kind of surface finish will this leave? Will it have to have some kind of low gloss paint on it or will it blend in. I am very interested in trying this first on experimental wood to see what it does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 12:33 pm:

Kinda depends on your definition of original. To some, original means that there are no aftermarket or reproduction parts. Other think it means there are no parts that weren't on THAT car when it left the factory. If you dented a fender and replaced it with one that Henry installed on the next car back on the assembly line, then it's not original to them. Still others think that if you can't see it, it's OK. The definitions are all over the board.

Other words with various definitions include rebuilt, restored, and things like that. They mean different things to different people. Be VERY careful using them if you ever run a for sale ad. You are certain to get pushback if you use any of these words and your car doesn't meet their definition of the word you used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 12:58 pm:

Yes Lyndon. It will leave a semi gloss finish that will need to be dulled down if that is the finish you choose, but it should be coated anyway to protect the surrounding wood, not treated with the LiquidWood, from further decay. LiquidWood is also good for stabilizing and hardening old soft and dry rotted complicated compound curved wood pieces used in attaching the body panels to. Use the LiquidWood, instead of scraping off the soft wood and filling. If the piece is bad enough, you may have nothing left after scraping and being able to preserve the soft wood at least gives you the original contours of the piece.

The WoodEpox is also the best wood filler I have found for filling and smoothing the wood. Very clean and easy to use. I buy it by the gallon for my Victorian house. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 01:11 pm:

Lots of opinions on this one.
To be sure there have been some T's that were in great shape for an original car and totally restored. Maybe some of these cars should have been left alone and cleaned up and been made a sound original driver.
If your T is in decent solid condition I think it should be cleaned up and be made into a good driver.
It can always be restored later if you want to.
Just remember that if you spend thousands on a restoration job you will be lucky if you get 70% of what you have in it if you want to sell it. Just the way it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 01:39 pm:

Then there is the difference between "stock" and "original." In the case of my Tudor, it was 90% original and 90% worn out. I would say at least 1/3 of the car now has had new parts installed or original replacement parts that probably came off of another car. There comes a time when things just wear out and if you want to drive the car and be safe, parts have to be replaced and.......it is no longer "original." However, it still can be considered "stock." In my opinion, stock (including period parts) is preferable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman, Rochester, NY on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 01:46 pm:

I wanted some protection .. so I sprayed Rustoleum rust reformer on the sheet metal to coat the exposed rust pitting. Then I buffed off the standing rust reformer on the top of the sheet metal down to the actual remaining paint with fine abrasive steel wool and then compound. There are wear areas that I left without paint like the door sills and the top of the windshield to let the very fine surface rust be rubbed down to what is called "browning" in antique gun finishes. The look is cohesive ... as if it was found in pretty good condition but the finish rubbed down after removing the pigeon crap. Most antique car owners, who understand the attraction to original finishes, appreciate the look of my car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 01:49 pm:

"Bitsa, bitsa, bitsa!"

Fix it, and make it work...
"Happy T-ing!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 02:03 pm:

One of the hottest topics among antique car enthusiasts, one that never seems to cool, is the subject of originality. In that realm, we use different terms of only slightly diverging connotation; words like "stock," "unmolested," "authentic," "genuine," "accurate," "correct," etc. A comprehensive, frame-off restoration may return an automobile to "stock," or even "mint" condition, but it'll never be "original" again. Whether you prefer a restored car to an original, unrestored car, the recent trend, where the oldest of collector cars is concerned, tends to eschew gross modifications. At the more prestigious auctions, unmodified cars from the Brass-Era through about the 1930's simply command the highest prices. Hot-rods, eh—not so much.

If you're an award-winning competitor of the Pebble Beach/Amelia Island variety, you enjoy your car in a way that differs from the weekly, neighborhood cruise-in crowd. Your car doesn't get driven very much, and may not even be registered or have license plates, and it lives 99.9% of its life in a surgically clean garage or an enclosed trailer. Such a priceless, restored-to-mint treasure is an authentic historical standard against which others are measured . With these automobiles, fidelity to detail is carried out to an apogean degree, a practice which may have given meaning to the term, "over-restored." So where do we draw the line on authenticity and originality? Do we fill the gas tank and engine with vintage gasoline and oil? Do we fill the tires with genuine vintage air? That may sound facetious, but if, instead of black or brown grease, the factory used red grease, the trophy-seeking owner will also make certain to use that same red stuff. And if anti-freeze wasn't available back in that day, you won't see any trace of green stain under the hood. I mean, these guys are serious!

Then, on the other hand, there are factory-new parts which, right from the get-go, were intended for regular replacement. How people replaced them and the parts they used are a part of the historical record. These items include tires, brake shoes, spark plugs and so on. Most Brass-Era automobiles were designed with the intent of being, to a significant extent, owner-maintained, or owner's chauffeur-maintained—and all these cars did require one heck of a lot of maintenance and tinkering.

In the case of Ford's humble Model T *, which was designed to be kept in running order by a farmer wielding a pocketknife (and the American farmer was Henry's favorite demographic), this is especially true. Because the car was the most-produced vehicle of its day, an aftermarket industry of non-factory, Model T parts manufacturers burst into being and the catalogs of these companies are now collector items. I think this very widespread capitalistic endeavor should be considered a significant component of the history of Ford's Flivver. The photographic record shows the car equipped with ahoogah horns, fat-man steering wheels, robe-rails, crystal vases (for Heaven's sake!), rear-view mirrors, Hassler shock absorbers, accordion running-board racks and toolboxes, and yes—even clear-varnished wood-spoke wheels and white-wall tires!

Would this kind of stuff get past the eye of an AACA judge? Nah, but then, neither would fuzzy dice, curb-feeler springs, retractable "Necker" steering-wheel knobs, or a half-empty pack of Luckies on the dashboard of a '57 Chevy. But you know what? Such things belong there because they tell part of the story of the people who owned these cars and the times in which they lived. When I go to museums, I do see those accessories in abundance.

*As a related aside, the parts-network of Ford dealerships routinely replaced worn out major components (like rear axle/differential assembles) with recognizably later-model parts when owners would bring their cars in for such repairs. As these were genuine Ford parts installed by authorized Ford dealers, what then would be the status of historical legitimacy and accuracy in such cases? No good? Okay, what if the present owner could produce the original Ford receipt that documented such replacement?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 02:26 pm:

One thing I'd like to mention about "conserving" original finish on a car that shows, as Lyndon noted, some "bubbling of rust" which I'm understanding to mean bubbling through the original paint. This indicates that the panel is quite rusty on the inside, very likely where a wood frame has held dust and moisture. Disturbing the "bubbles" might be very disturbing indeed, if probing the "bubbles" leads to the discovery of a section where extensive interior rusting might easily lead to much larger holes in the panel. It would be best to take the indications of "cancer" under advisement, and move cautiously. The least done, the better.

If rusty interior panel ares can be reached to treat rust with rust "converters" or POR-15, these products might be used successfully to slow or arrest oxidation. Patina is one thing, but rust is quite literally a cancer that will ultimately dissolve iron and steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 03:39 pm:

Rich, assuming that the rust pits are not an exterior surface problem, but, instead, originate from the inside at the surface of the wood and has penetrated all the way through the steel from the inside. I am assuming Ospho is one of the rust converters you are referring to. “Ospho” is a solution which, when applied to rust, halts the advance of rust and converts it to an inert element. Would the application of Ospho to stop the “cancer” be a suitable solution to the problem, so that more extensive intervention is not necessary. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 04:12 pm:

I dunno Jim. I've never used a "converter", but I have had good results with POR 15. A near-rusted through panel where the rust is hidden by the wooden frame or other members would be a different problem. Would "Ospho" seep behind wood frame ? Would it harm the wood ? As with most "answers" we can offer,
" ...it depends."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lyndon Moore on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 04:17 pm:

My 1915 Touring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 04:26 pm:

Always has seemed like the loudest critics of originality, have never even owned a Model T...just my observation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lyndon Moore on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 04:26 pm:

Close-up of interior. note the corner of arm rest is off and the top padding dangling. If you look close you can see the discolor of the cowl where the rust is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lyndon Moore on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 04:31 pm:

Close-up of front fender


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 04:40 pm:

The AACA has a category known as HPOF - Historical Preservation of Original Features. You might want to look at its rules to see what one major club has agreed is, or isn't, original. I imagine whatever relatively minor preservative maintenance you do to that very handsome car will still pass muster with AACA. You may not care ever to have your car certified by that club as original, but doing so would give you the advantage of approval by a respected independent group, add to your bragging rights, and give you rebuttal ammunition against naysayers and nitpickers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lyndon Moore on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 04:41 pm:

Oops, I did not realize I cut the top off when I was referring to the padding/burlap falling down.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lyndon Moore on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 05:12 pm:

I want to thank everyone for their input. Above is a picture(s) of my car. Earlier, I told you that I did not have any pictures, but my wife did. And I must thank her for figuring our how to post. But I think she is still having some problems. Back to the definition of original. I realize that almost no car would be completely original. Because it would have to be like rolling off the assembly line to be completely original. Even changing a tire would not be completely original. (over exaggerating) But we aren't worried about that. I am calling cars that has not been disassembled down to the frame, the original interior, matching motor number and title, and paint, etc, originals. As seen in the above pictures, the LF fender has a lot of dents, and surface rust around the edges. All I done is sprayed a mist of black spray paint to hide the rust areas. You could take a rag soaked with thinner and it would wipe right back off. I was just concerned on the LF fender damage and the blistering along the bottom of the body. It is not that bad, I just don't like it. I would like to polish the brass also, but thought it would look out of place with the rest of the car. I have had the car for several years. I just don't want to so something to it that would take away from its originality. I just did not want to do something that I would be sorry for later. Or go to a show and everybody tell me that I should have left it alone. Because it is a good old car. Even the front floor mat looks nice for an original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lyndon Moore on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 05:15 pm:

Back to the number of Model T's registered, this is not a registered T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 05:24 pm:

Outstanding, Lyndon. It looks like you are doing everything right. There is a frequent saying on this site. “ A Model T is only original once”. Thanks to you and your wife for the pictures. Keep us posted on what you do. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 06:55 pm:

I contend that a Model T may only be original once but it has an ever growing history that tells the story of everyone who's ever had it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 - 07:28 pm:

Tim, since my ‘26. Coupe was completely restored to like new condition during a two year period from 1970 to ‘72, I’m afraid that all evidence of past owners and their contributions to the history of my T was eliminated, so that the only evidence of past ownership is me, however, thinking back on it, I can’t really think of anything I could have saved or preserved that would change this.

When I bought it for $600.00, it was a very dilapidated, rusted, but complete, bare bones coupe, with no accessories or special features that would have been a reflection of past owners. I suppose that the most important thing that is a reflection of past ownership is the fact that my Model T survived until 1970 when I found it and was not scrapped or destroyed along the way. For that, I am eternally grateful to them all, whoever they may have been. Jim Patrick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brice Chalançon on Wednesday, October 03, 2018 - 02:00 am:

Lyndon,
The FIVA wrote a charter to help vintage car owner’s :
http://www.fiva.org/wp-content/uploads/Charter-of-Turin-2017.pdf

Maybe this could help you to make a choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, October 03, 2018 - 03:07 am:

I think I would see about carefully patching that torn arm rest corner, that is one of the few pieces of real leather used on that interior, so you might be able to hand stitch some replacement leather there---if its not taken care of soon, it will get worse, damaging the un-molested parts of the arm rest.
Yes, I can see some front fender damage, but it is so minor (in the pictures at least) that I would leave it be, unless the edge bead is broken, which could lead to more cracking. A remarkably well-preserved car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, October 03, 2018 - 02:45 pm:

I really enjoyed reading Bob Coiro's explanation. Having a car that only comes out for shows with, I would assume is to win shows, takes a whole different mentality that I don't understand...and probably never will. I can appreciate the true-to-form restoration, but to never be able to drive it and enjoy it....I don't get it. Maybe it is a status thing and, coming from humble roots, status was not something my family worried too much about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C west central, MN on Friday, October 05, 2018 - 12:53 am:

Me neither Jim, I don't "get" it. My old junk (my phrase) is to be used and enjoyed. I try to remain quite humble.
I'm gonna sound like a cluck right now (2. Informal A stupid or foolish person) but perhaps try some oil on something that's quietly rusting and you want it stopped, if you can get the oil where it needs to be. Oil wouldn't harm the wood as far as I know either. Oil can help preserve.
Correct me if I'm wrong, please. :-)
I'm certain you don't leave that gorgeous Touring outdoors so the oil might help and not wash away.
Your Mileage May Vary.
I need to oil the fuel and gas tank on an 80 year old TC/MM tractor I just received to preserve it from the outside-in. It's like new inside but is rusty outside. My 90 year old junk needs the same. Some oil. YMMV.
Please disregard these notions if off-kilter like me.
:-)


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration