I stopped by my friends home in W.VA. today on the way to Hershey. Besides having a great time talking about T's, he took me for a ride in his original '15, which really is; not one of these put together '15s like you see in LA all the time.
It was my first ride in a '15, and will be a memorable experience for years to come. Thanks Jim!

Larry, OT, but can you take a look at the pickup bed on the Craigslist ad in the classifieds and tell us if it is a 1925 bed or not? There seems to be a difference in opinion in the thread. Thanks!

Larry,I will be at Hershey.I would like to see you. I will have my 11 T on the show grounds on Saturday, if I don't in the flea market.

The '15 Ford is absolutely wonderful because it is the least expensive, easiest to maintain, easiest to gets part for, easiest to drive, genuine Brass-Era* horseless carriage of all. -Bar none. -Period.

For between 16 and 19-grand, most any average Joe (or Josephine) with an average bank account—and a garage—can afford to get in on the fun. -Heck, I once saw a beautifully restored '15 Ford Touring go for 10-grand! -The car will never lose any of its value, in fact, it should slowly (very slowly) appreciate—and should you ever feel the need to sell, you can always get the entirety of your investment back—which means, for however long you owned your car, you had a whole lot of fun essentially for free.

By contrast, other Brass-Era cars can cost anywhere between 30-grand and—believe it or not—a million bucks. -The '15 Ford is the cheapest ticket into what for most folks would otherwise be an unattainable, rich man's club. -Now, ain't that a kick in the brass?

*For whatever reason, the Horseless Carriage Club of America decided to close the Brass-Era at the end of 1915 in spite of the fact that the 1916 Model T Ford was practically identical to the '15 and very much a brass car.

All good observations about the 1915 T. That's why we have one

I'll "one up you"; I have a 1916 year model T built in 1915, so it's an HCCA qualified car, AND it's one of the first Million (barely!).
Can't wait to get it back together.

Though the Horseless Carriage Club of America decided that 1915 was a nice round number and closed the brass chapter there, I think their reckoning missed the mark—by a year. -

By deciding to retain the brass radiator on the most influential and important automobile in history through the 1916 model-year, Henry Ford, who seemed to pride himself on being the first to be last, single-handedly (and in spite of what the HCCA has to say) nudged the expiry of the Brass-Era back 365 days, bless his retrograde little heart. -Had it been any other car, I wouldn't be making this observation, but it was the Tin Lizzie that was inexpensive enough to become "every man's car;" it was Ford's fabulous Flivver that was manufactured in greater numbers than any American automobile—ever. -And it was the Model T Ford that put the world on wheels. -

The influence of this single automobile was just too great for it to be disqualified from recognition as the last of the Brass-Era automobiles merely for the sake of a round number. -The cut-off point should have been the last day of 1916. -Just my humble opinion.

Does a 1916 fiscal model year T, as in late 1915 casting date, qualify for the Horseless Carriage Club?

The HCCA has been arguing over that cutoff every few years since I think 1937. The arguments have quieted down the past two decades, but I remember nasty fights and letter writing campaigns as recent as the 1980s. I have often expressed a part of my opinion as "Drawing that line in the sand is not difficult, it is IMPOSSIBLE!"
Hard cutoff, soft cutoff, model year, fiscal year, calendar year, Ford shoved them out the doors a thousand per day, other companies took months to complete a custom build. NO one way works fairly to all.

I won't give my full opinion at this time. Suffice to say that I do believe the HCCA has done a pretty good job of tweaking the definition given a few bad decisions made many years ago.
Currently, any car reasonably believed to have been manufactured (basically a running and driveable car) before January first 1916, qualifies for HCCA national tours and meets.


I am not authorized to officially speak for the HCCA, but that is basically where it stands today. And in spite of the fact even the current definition leaves a couple thousand cars in a still gray area (many of them extremely desirable cars!)? My personal opinion is that the rules should stay basically as they are. There is really no perfect solution.

Anyway, Frank v E, yes, currently a December built 1916 model is fully qualify-able. As a matter of fact, there is at least one surviving late December '15 built Studebaker that is considered by many people to be a 1917 model, that has been accepted as a pre-January '16 car. Officially, Studebaker dropped the model year designation at that time and called the cars "series 17"s. What was at first called the 1916 model was re-designated the series 16, and every single one of them was manufactured before the end of December '15. The series 17 was officially unveiled and leaving the factory on December 28 1915. Although Studebaker DID NOT consider it to be a 1917 model, many people to this day dispute that point.

Any hard and fast rule leaves some folks on the wrong side of it. Suppose the HCCA moved to include calendar year 1916 to sweep in the last brass-radiator Ts. In fact, most Ts built in calendar year 1916 had black radiators, and those cars are indistinguishable from Ts built in 1917, 1918, - - - . So folks with a car built in January, 1917, would be arguing to change the rule. Actually, the pre-1916 rule is somewhat sloppily enforced. Plenty of early Ts are showing up at HCCA tours with later engines with starters and generators. Nobody makes them go home.

I appreciate that one has to draw the line somewhere. -At this point, one can only guess at the criteria used by the HCCA close the Brass-Era on December 31st, 1915. -By 1912, the brass era was in steep decline, if not already ended, as claimed by some of the more ardent purists who see Packard's electric lamps and Cadillac's self-starter as technological disqualification from the fundamental category of "horseless carriage."

Now, I know there the Brass-Era is supposed to end, but where does it begin? -In spite of the brevity of the automotive brass era, development and significant change within its bounds came fast and furious. -Up to around 1906, most cars were little more than glorified golf carts with one or two-cylinder engines hidden beneath very nicely upholstered seats. -Seemingly overnight, there were giant, seven-passenger touring cars with four and six-cylinder engines of locomotive displacement*—and they were out in front where they belonged!

My favorite model years are from 1910 to 1912, what I consider the peak of the brass era. -This is the point where hang-the-expense, diamond-tufted, robber-baron luxury was still constrained—however close to the bursting point—by the archaic technology of bucket-sized, match-lit acetylene lamps and armstrong starters. -Even the most lavish of behemoths still had flat wooden dashboards, hickory-spoke wheels and T-head engines with primer-petcocks—and throttles in the oddest of places. -But so momentary was this zenith within the already brief span of the brass era that by 1912, brass radiators were starting to fall out of vogue. -

Someday, assuming I either hit the state lottery or print up a whole lot of money, I think I'd like to have a 1911 Pierce-Arrow or 1912 Locomobile (but I'd suppose I'd be willing to settle for a Packard).

*I recently saw the engine of a 1910 Royal Tourist and the thing looked big enough to have come from an ocean-going freighter.

Larry... I am so glad you stopped by for the day. I wish it could have been longer but we sure had a good time.

And for those who don't know this, "Original Smith" can tickle the Ivory as seen in this photo with my daughter looking on. It was a nice end to a great day.

You might settle for Bob Barrett's 1913 London-to-Edinburgh Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost. I was a passenger for one day on the Reliability Tour. That's one helluva machine!

I KNOW THAT TALL DUDE !!! Have fun Larry

There are those in this club, who are convinced they own a true 1915, when they don't. This is very sad indeed. If you want to fool yourself, that's ok, but why? It's a shame that the HCCA didn't make the cutoff date 1914, but they didn't, and now we have to live with it!