Band ear and lining

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Band ear and lining
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Seelman on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 09:35 am:

Guys,

Doing some maintenance over the weekend. To me my band linings look good...tell me if I'm wrong especially the low band. Also, do I have the bands with the removable ears? Have never had to change a band and really don't what the removable ears look like.
The good news is there was nothing attached to the magnet in the filter, except maybe a light coat of oil with some lint...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 09:48 am:

Your '15 is showing cut-down low pedal shaft, with just a stub. The adjusting shaft is the later version for the detachable ear bands. So without looking closely on the left side of the bands one could guess you have them.




Detachable style on Left


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 11:33 am:

I have heard Kevlar is hard on the drums. I also am concerned about pieces of Kevlar flying through my engine oil.

I have detachable ears and also found a long flat tool to fish them through. I will get a picture.
My dad was using a hole punch, cutting holes in the cotton linings and cutting pieces of cork and putting in the bands.
Anyone else tried this, he was getting pretty good life out of them.
I assume he glued them somehow ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 11:54 am:

"Kevlar flying through my engine oil" Cotton maybe but should not be an issue with Kevlar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 01:32 pm:

A good idea is to use the oil strainer screen that's avaliable from the T parts suppliers.
I have them in all 3 of my cars. They do help and they are probably one of the best accessories for a T that really works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 03:39 pm:

I do have a screen. Cleaned it out when I adjusted the bands.
It was covered with cotton, no idea when it was cleaned last.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 03:50 pm:

The tool I spoke of...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 04:11 pm:

Dave "back in the day" a number of concerns offered cork insert linings. I picked these up a while back, "NOS". They smell musty and the cork has deteriorated, it's crumbly. I found it would be easy to replace the cork with a certain size bottle cork, trimmed to the proper thickness. As with the original inserts, the taper holds it in the lining, no glue required. I don't think gluing would be successful anyhow. I'd run them if I was sure the lining was sound, but I'm unsure. Makers claimed exceptional smoothness in operation and longer wear. Reviews of the time seem to agree they were effective.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joss sanderson on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 04:45 pm:

Kevlar work fine. No fuzz no debris. Have used for 20 years. Kevlar is no hard on drums. What is hard on drums is drivers who drive a T like a modern car or adjust the bands so tight they bind.
No need for cork inserts or any of the hundreds of accessories marketed for making bands better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 05:40 pm:

John'

The removable ears will be on the driver side, assuming you have an car with left hand drive. You will not be able to see them without taking the adjustment parts off and letting the bands fall to the right. Tie some string or wire to the right ears to make it easier to fish them out. Stuff rags around when you take the nuts and washers off so you don't drop anything in the bottom of the transmission. Very important: count the rags.

I put Kevlar in my car when I rebuilt the engine about 650 miles ago. I didn't like the way they felt so I am going back to cotton. They just didn't grab as well. There is not a lot of wear on the drums, but I have auxiliary brakes so there was no wear on the brake band. I think that wearing out bands is preferable to wearing out the drums. I have read a lot of stories about Kevlar wearing out drums. A lot depends on how you drive. Don't slip the bands any more than necessary. As a side note, the cotton is much easier to install. The rivets go in without pre-drilling, and they clinch into the material. I couldn't get the rivets to clinch into the Kevlar.

The material is about 0.175 inch thick when new. You should consider re lining the bands when the material is about 0.100 inch thick. Others will have a different number.

The metal band for pulling the bands around the drums is necessary. You can use some wire but it is much harder to use. The first band out and the last one in is the brake band. Second is the low speed band and last is reverse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 07:41 pm:

Stories about Kevlar wearing out drums are stories. I think Dave Huson has probably torn down more transmissions than most anyone around. He'd be the first to tell you that he finds cracked and worn out drums constantly. All happened before the advent of Kevlar.

On the other hand, I shake my head when I see pictures of pitted drums with old, heavy rust pits and chips in the rims fitted with new bands of any type. Just saw one on the forum within the last few weeks. Folks are quick to condemn Kevlar, but have no qualms about leaving junk drums in their transmission. Go figure.

Personally, I think cotton feels better, but Kevlar lasts. That longevity is a reason that nearly every pro engine builder puts Kevlar in their customers' cars.

Now that a certain poster is no longer participating, I think the hysterical Kevlar scare stories will be dramatically minimized over time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 07:56 pm:

I run Kevlar in both of my cars and don't have any issues and I have run them for over 15 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Macleod on Monday, October 08, 2018 - 10:38 pm:

I had Kevlar in my 26 Touring but just switched to wooden linings last year. So far so good but the are not as "smushy" feeling as either cotton or kevlar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Tuesday, October 09, 2018 - 07:25 am:

John,

I should add that it is important to check to see if your bands are round. Use an old drum or something of the same diameter and tie the bands one at a time on the drum to see if they contact all the way around. Carefully bend to correct. The ends where the ears are will probably not contact.

Scott is correct that the surface finish of the drums is important. Should be ground true and smooth. There can be some marks that go around the circumference as long as they are not deep or rough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Seelman on Tuesday, October 09, 2018 - 07:56 am:

Thanks for all the replies. So how do you know if the low band needs to be replaced? I assume you just run out of adjust ability. In looking at my low band in the picture it still looks like there is lining left, but of course you can't see all the way around...thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, October 09, 2018 - 08:30 am:

Generally the low band needs replacement as you noted when there isn't much adjustment left, or else you can't get the band to lock tight on the low drum to get underway.

Sometimes the exposed leading edge thickness can show excess wear, compared to the other lining thicknesses.

Usually the low band lining wears at the bottom, and at the leading edges. Especially if the band is out of round.

When re-lining a band, get it round without cocking or offset, and try to get the ears to a gap within 4" of each other. That will be the better chance of the band lining functioning well.





Low band lining in center shows bit more wear than others, this set is worn, but could be used, however best to replace when you have old bands out. The 'lint' is normal to cotton weave linings, they get worn down that way. Kevlar wears little in comparison.



Lower band in picture shows correct adjustment, when re-lined, you'll want the band to be this round.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 - 12:26 am:

I know a lot of people have had good experiences with Kevlar. A couple of posts above seem to say that Kevlar does not shed or shred, but I have seen an engine with Kevlar throughout. Our club has a machinist who is always tinkering and "improving" his T. He has pressure oiling, oil filter, balanced everything, and all is way beyond perfect. If his drums were not absolutely perfect and smoother than a baby's butt, they would not be in his engine. Anyway we set off on a several hundred mile multi-day tour and he kept having to adjust his bands, which is supposed to be normal for the first few hundred miles with Kevlar. On the day we were to head home, he had no low band, and no more adjustment. He decided to try and make it home using low Ruckstell / high Ford, and high direct. A few miles into the trip, and he had no oil pressure, so onto the trailer he went. Upon inspection after he got home he found the bands to be excessively worn, and a gritty substance throughout the engine. The oil filter and oil lines were clogged with it, and due to the pressure oiling, it was throughout the engine and in all of the bearings and even the rings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 - 04:23 am:

Jeff, one account like that, outweighs all other "no issues with Kevlar" accounts for me.
Kevlar is obviously harder than cotton and obviously still wears...
Smaller fibers of Kevlar (IMHO) can and will get into places cotton may not. And those fibers are harder (more abrasive) than cotton. Just doesn't seem like a good trade off to me. I would rather change cotton bands a little more often than worn engine internals...

My H-D Shovelhead was designed to dribble engine oil on the primary chain in a separate case. It then sucks it back out and into the back side of the oil pump, clutch material and all.
Yeah it works, but after several thousand bucks, going from 74ci to 93ci and about doubling the HP, I didn't want clutch material (Kevlar or otherwise), in my engine oil. I separated and sealed off the primary and just run transmission fluid in it now.

And FWIW, I was less than impressed with the wear of Kevlar clutch discs or brake pads. The brake pads lasted about as long as a tire, in the rear...6000-7000 miles. And they made noise, 2 sets and I went back to semi metallic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 - 10:02 am:

Jeff

my experience with Kevlar is to adjust maybe twice in 50 miles and then essentially never again.

Something was obviously wrong and your friend forced his car to consume itself.

The only car I will not work on is an "improved" T. They are nearly always owned by people who have never owned a T before, do not know the limits and joys of a T, but are certain they know better than the OEM. Their cars are invariably a disaster and are the first to quit on a tour.

I cannot predict what caused his trouble, but with pressure oiling, he turned a $100 problem into probably a $4000+ problem.

This is a sad story, extreme in nature and will undoubtedly push some folks "on the fence" to fear Kevlar. Of course it won't make them fear full pressure oiling and filtering the oil (which is what put kevlar where it could never naturally go). But that's another story altogether, isn't it?

With most professional builders putting it in their customers' engines, they have a pretty good idea if they are going to cause a warrantee job or not. My own and many others experience is that they are trouble free with many many thousands of miles on them. My engine oil is golden/brown at every change and the lint trap rarely shows any debris. This is my Kevlar story.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 - 11:32 am:

Here is my Kevlar story.

After 650 miles I switched back to cotton, only because I like the feel of cotton better. It seems to grab better. The new drums were fine with only some minor marks where the rivets run. (I could not get the rivets to clinch over into the Kevlar.)

I noticed that the Kevlar had compressed somewhat, which would explain why they need to be adjusted after installation. There was no wear but the Kevlar had taken on a glaze.

The horror stores about Kevlar scare me but my experience did not indicate any excessive wear. But still....

My previous experience with cotton was good. I do not slip the bands any more than necessary and have auxiliary brakes so no wear on the brake band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 - 01:58 pm:

Scott,

I agree that if the pros are using it without warranty fears, it must be OK. I just wanted to relay the experience. We have no idea why the Kevlar disintegrated, there were no sharp edges or rough spots anywhere. You are correct that the pressurized oiling is what caused the entire engine to be ruined as it forced the grit into everything. However if the filter hadn't caught a lot of the grit (meaning there would be even more in the oil) It probably would have still been in the bearings just from dippers and splash oiling.

I chide him all the time that while he is repairing his "improved" engine, which has had other issues besides the Kevlar, I keep driving my old worn out stocker that rattles, bangs, and knocks, and just keeps going.

Everyone has their own opinion on bands, oiling, dippers, etc. but really with many millions of T's driving many millions of miles with splash oiling and no dippers or oil holes in the rods, why create possible problems by drilling and weakening an already weak crankshaft?

I know several people who have driven many years and miles with pressurized oiling and no problems, I know many more with splash systems, dippers, and oil holes, also no problems, and even a few that are still running all original cast iron pistons and no dippers, oil holes, or grooves, just the way they came from the factory, and NO PROBLEMS!

As far as bands go, I have never tried Kevlar, but I have one car with wood bands (ok but some chatter), one car with cotton (very smooth, no chatter, nice feel), and one with a bonded lining (like a brake lining) that as far as I know was put in back in the '70s or maybe even the '60s. It chatters some, but I almost never adjust anything. I never see bonded linings even mentioned in any discussions.

To each his own.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 - 03:19 pm:

Jeff

I think bonded linings don't get discussed because hardly anyone has them and only old-timers remember them. They were all the rage in the '70's. I recall my dad's car had them and the chatter on the brakes was outrageous. Any slack in the system would cause everything to go into resonance at low speed. I think they went the way of the Dodo when Kevlar came on the scene.

I wonder if your friend had earlier Kevlar bands which I have heard were actually bonded to some sort of a backing and were problematic from the get-go. I haven't heard of those being sold for ages, though.

Sounds like our cars are very similar...simple as Henry made it and reliable as all get-out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 - 07:44 pm:

Jeff,

I am just guessing, but if your machinist friend kept adjusting the bands then they were being eaten by something, chewed up and spit out. Kevlar will melt if it gets too hot. If it melts it will slip more and then melt more, a vicious cycle. Maybe the bands were not round so that some area was getting all the load and wearing away, requiring re-adjusting, only to wear away again. Maybe it was his driving technique. I had to press a lot harder on my peddles to keep my Kevlar bands from not slipping. I have auxiliary brakes so I don't use the brake band. It is just there for backup.


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