Short block install help...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Short block install help...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 03:29 pm:

I’m getting ready to install my short block on the pan. My rod nuts don’t have pins, attached is a photo of them. Do I need pins?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 03:46 pm:

I would find the correct castle nuts and pin them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Humble Northern Michigan on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 03:56 pm:

Those are lock nuts not castle nuts. Castle nuts use cotter pins, lock nuts are a tighter fit at the end with the slots cut. Lock nuts should be fine, I if it were me I would leave them alone since it is already done and your studs may or may not be drilled for cotter pins.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Humble Northern Michigan on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 03:59 pm:

On closer inspection I think I can see the cotter pin hole so you should be able to replace with castle nuts and cotter pins easily enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Thompson, Sudbury MA on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 04:16 pm:

No, those lock nuts are fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 04:25 pm:

If lock nuts are used more than one time, they might loose the ability to firmly hold. But may hold in may hold fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 04:43 pm:

MMM! interesting crank, balance counter weight welded on!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 04:49 pm:

I saw that too Frank...
What does welding a crank near the bearing journal do to the metal integrity ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 04:54 pm:

Welding it full stop scares the hell out of me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:08 pm:

So those two piece dippers don't scare you guys?
You know it would not be the first time one of those things came apart inside.

I'm not worried about the nuts that's exactly how all modern engines are assembled and no problems there.

The welding IS interesting. I hope it was balanced afterward..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:21 pm:

I don’t know who built it, I did buy it off the forum about a year ago. Someone told me it was done by a machine shop that had a great reputation that closed up several years back.

If you think I need to pull the dippers I will - just let me know.

The crank is balanced.

Travis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:21 pm:

When I stand on my head to orient things as they are in the car, is that dipper on the right way round, or does the headstand scramble my brain?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:24 pm:

I think it was antique auto engines inc. that did the engine if I recall correctly.


Travis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:28 pm:

Here is a better photo. I am going to swap out the fiber timing gear for aluminum tonight.




If the dippers need to come off, be flipped, or be replaced I will, just let me know.


Travis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:30 pm:

Allan.
Facing the cam is correct, I've rebuilt many engines over the years and have always used dippers, no issues that I know of, the few I've had to dive inside again for issues like a broken drum, they have been fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:39 pm:

What should I use for sealing and installing the gasket to the pan? Permitex or silicone or just oil it and bolt it down?


Travis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:49 pm:

Travis,

Lots of forum members are using locking nuts rather than cotter keys. The aircraft variety have the best reviews.

Use the silicone sealant available from the parts dealers. Buy lots of tubes. Use the sealing washers on the bolts that fasten on the inspection plate. If you do everything right your engine will not leak oil. Mike Bender has some good videos on this subject, see http://modelt-tips.com/.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:56 pm:

Travis,

Is that a fiber cam gear? These are quiet gears but have been known to fail. The bronze gears are the most durable but expensive and a little noisy.

Regarding the crankshaft. Warping is probably the greatest problem with welding. Is the rebuilder reputable? Has the crankshaft been stress relieved and ground true after it was welded?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 06:00 pm:

Travis,

After re reading your posts, it seems that you don't have a lot of history for the crankshaft. I would just use it as-is and not worry too much about it. If it fails it fails.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 06:39 pm:

Thanks Neil, I don’t really have any history on the crank, but looking over everything it looks like it was all done right. A few of the model a guys locally looked at it and were impressed with it, saying whoever did it knew what they were doing and they can tell it was balanced after the weights were added.

I will get some gasket silicone and start putting it together.

I do have an aluminum timing gear I will put on, and the fiber is going in my display case in the house museum building.


I also have an extra short block that just needs babbit I will have as a spare, along with another extra crank. I think this engine will be fine.

Travis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 07:01 pm:

As always opinions will vary but in my view on that job I'm not impressed and it's far from professional, all welding would have been tidied up before leaving my shop.
Any way what was done is to copy a sure-mike crank, even those balanced up nicely but still would crack.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 07:02 pm:

Lock nuts are good to go, one time use. Use an old set when setting the shims, then news ones for final torque.

Replace the fiber gear with either aluminum or bronze, both are very good.

The dippers are oriented correctly. I have no experience with two piece ones.

For the gaskets, google Mike Bender Videos MTFCA, or something similar, and look for the one where the fit the pan. The job and procedure ho follows is excellent; it's worth the time. If you don't have time to watch how it's done right, you'll never have time to redo it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 07:19 pm:

http://modelt-tips.com/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 08:13 pm:

Thanks for the link to mikes page. I was ahead of myself and was getting ready to install the short block on the pan without the transmission. You saved me some wasted time and gaskets. Thanks a bunch!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 10:23 pm:

Travis, as Frank pointed out, the dippers are correctly oriented. With your photo from the front of the engine, I got my head on straight!!!!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 10:40 pm:

I didn't mean to scare you about the dippers but do check to make sure they are secure and not loose and no cracks near the nuts.

Use Ultra Black made by Permatex for the sealant. I don't use gaskets unless needed for spacing. Clean all Oily surfaces and apply some UB around the bolts when you install them.

Take it slow and ask and look ahead. Lots of great advice here.

You might check for some local help from other T guys


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 11:01 pm:

Have never seen welded on counter-weights before. Was this common with old school engine builders?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 03:24 am:

Here is the original ad for my engine showing who built it for an FYI.



Travis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 08:39 am:

Just my two cents, but I prefer to see the welds as welded rather than ground (tidied up). Once the surface of the weld is ground away it makes it very difficult to determine the quality of the weld (too cold, too hot, not enough penetration, etc.). There's too may ground welds with a finger tip of bondo out there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 09:11 am:

Change those nuts. The problem I have with them ? You have no history on the rebuild & don't know if it's the 2nd time they've been used. You are, without a doubt, taking a chance with them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 10:25 am:

Modern engines don't use cotter pins or lock nuts. I just use the standard castle nuts without pinning them and have not had any problems for years. I don't pin them because getting the correct torque on them is a very lengthy process. It is working on new engines sooo.... If the shims are installed correctly and the bolts are torqued properly , your engine is fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 12:43 pm:

Just me, but........ maybe ten years ago a beautiful short block came from a local T owners estate auction. . It found its way into a friends T. After a hundred miles or so, things started coming apart. It was a disaster. The crank had been chromed, and started spinning off and taking the bearings with it. Even though it passed through my hands, were all friends , the owner and fellow that Installed it pulled it, and we took care of it. It was pretty painful, for the owner of the car, the guy who installed it and me. Big time. I would never, never, ever again be involved with something like this. Keep in mind, the engine I had looked beautiful. This one being discussed is just scary. I would never again use a motor that wasn’t worked on by a competent rebuilder. You have to be willing to gamble the loss of all the time and effort from here to when it first starts. Believe me, it’s very painful to end up wasting that effort, and it’s FAR worse to have to do it right all over again. Those welded on weights are just the tip of the iceberg , IMHO. I love Joe’s welding post. A lot of truth there, too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Thompson Graham NC on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 12:51 pm:

are you worried about the weld failing or the crankshaft?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 02:15 pm:

As for chromed cranks wouldn't a T crank flex more than the chrome would withstand? Hence the flaking?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 03:08 pm:

"Grinder and paint makes me the welder I ain't."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 04:03 pm:

Some people should not be allowed anywhere near a welder. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hanlon N.E.Ohio on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 05:01 pm:

And they couldn't even unscrew the old tie rod !! Oh My...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 05:57 pm:

Interesting on how some interpret the term of "tidied up"
My eyes paid the price for over 25 years of welding by my mid 40's but I can still see the difference between shade tree, amateur and professional.

Look at those welds, slag/splatter balls, stuck well away from the welding, that needs to be "tidied up" as it can and will fall off any time and would have a detrimental effect on bearings etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 06:12 pm:

Good god I forgot how bad some of you guys can scare me into never driving my car!

I am going to just go with the engine and get the transmission finished and put it all together, and buckle it all up. It’s been off the road for 14 years and I’m ready to drive it and I’m out of money.


Travis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Thursday, November 01, 2018 - 10:41 am:

Don’t ask for advice unless you really want it. I see a lot of good suggestions, but it’s up to you to sort it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, November 01, 2018 - 10:55 am:

This crank isn't chromed, so there's no reason for being scared of flaking chrome like in one story above. The company that built this short block, Antique Automotive Engineering in Denver, Colorado may well have known their business and perhaps did a good job - I'd say it's very hard to tell anything about the welds from the pictures, so they may also be OK for the purpose. It's not a 5000 rpm racer, it's 2000 at most - and that's only if it's revved in low for some time.
And it's a '25-'27 style crank - they're little stouter from start.

Maybe someone from Denver, Co can tell more about the reputation of this engine builder?

I wouldn't hesitate driving it after careful assembly like Mike Bender tells us in his great youtube videos :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, November 01, 2018 - 01:15 pm:

Travis, Like Tim said there's lots of advice and opinions here, some better than others. A few guys just like to post, some looking for amusement and ribbing of others.

Do spend the time to watch the videos which will give you quite a lot of help. Some Books would be a very good investment and are very cheap. During the last 14 years you should have picked up a couple. Guys here are happy to help with posting info.

There are a few tricks to watch for as you put the engine back together and you want to only do it once while you have it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 05:37 am:

From the pictures, I don't see anything wrong with the welds, not saying there isn't, but I wouldn't be afraid to run it. I'd bet those welds will hold better than the bolts for the "Dunn" style counter weights, looks like they were 'Veed' out well before welding. As I recall, (that's kind of scary!) welding counter weights on is fairly common on Model A cranks. That being said, I don't know squat about Model A's, just have seen several 'A' cranks with welded counter weights. As for rod bolts and nuts, we always used used small block Chevy rod bolts and nuts, they fit almost like they were made for a T. (I really don't think Chevy parts in a T will cause it to melt down either!) :-) :-) :-) They are plentiful if you know a rebuilder or Hot Rodder. My thinking is, if they can hold a 350 SBC together at 5 or 6 thousand RPM + with no cotter pins, lock nuts, Loctite, etc., they should work just fine on a T, if they are new or used. They are WAY stronger than the T bolts and nuts. As always, JMHO.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 05:13 pm:

Travis,
A crank the same as yours was dug out of an engine back in 05, stamped on one of the weights was WISENBERG 31 and 12/77
Just curios if yours show any markings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Saturday, November 03, 2018 - 07:45 am:

For what it’s worth... with the dippers, you can bend the edge up against the flat of the nut on one side and use it for a “lock”


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Saturday, November 03, 2018 - 11:21 pm:

Good idea :-)


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