Model T engine repair

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Model T engine repair
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 11:40 pm:

It is time to give repair to mine T engine.
It is demounted, and seems that the crankshaft is ok, and the main problem is in cylinders.
The issue was knocking l, smoking and bad timing on high rpm

First question: how to manage with the transmission? Can it br detached assembly? It works good so I don’t need to disassemble it.

Pics are here:

https://www.drive2.ru/r/ford/288230376151808702/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 03:13 am:

Hello there Michael G. Nice to hear from you again.
Some people here will tell you that you should check all the transmission while it is out. However, that decision is yours to make.
Once the engine is out of the car, and the hog's head (transmission housing or cover) removed from the pan, and then the pan (crankcase) removed from the basic engine. Then the transmission and flywheel can be removed from the engine as a unit. There should be four bolts holding the flywheel onto the back of the crankshaft. There should also be a "safety wire" run through the heads of those four bolts. Removing the safety wire and the bolts should be easy to do.


Smoking means you probably need to replace the piston rings. Depending on the condition of the cylinders and pistons, it may or may not be necessary to replace the pistons or bore the cylinders to a larger size.


Knocking can be caused by many things. Check the connecting rods for looseness on the crankshaft before you take much more apart. That might tell you where to work next.
If any of the rods are too loose on the crankshaft, it may be a simple adjustment, or it may be necessary to replace the rod.
If none of the rods are too loose? Then we will need to look for another reason for the knock.

Good luck! And have fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 05:01 am:

Cylinders size now: 96,0mm (3,779”). Standart size as I understand is 3,750”. It is possible to bore with honing to 96,77mm (3,810”) - so it is 0,060 oversize.

So - is it better to use high compression pistons or regular aluminium?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 05:41 am:

Usually, .060 oversize is okay with a model T. That is considered by many people to be the maximum oversize recommended for them. Some people have gone to .080 with success, and even .100 has been done, but is NOT recommended. Due to variations in original castings (mold shifting during the casting process for example), and differences in exposure to corrosion over the past nearly a hundred years, even .060 has occasionally been too much. Usually, .060 on a model T block will work. A really good machinist may be able to clean it up at .040 oversize, especially if a ridged hone is used for final fitting. Proper fit varies depending upon the specific pistons used. You do not want a model T engine to be too tight. With aluminum pistons, with expansion slits in the sides (piston skirts), somewhere between four to five thousandths of an inch is often recommended. I personally like about one thousandth more. Pistons without expansion slits need about two thousandths more (about six to seven thousandths. And for clarity's sake, that is total clearance (diameter, not radius).
Cast iron pistons only require about two thousandths clearance because iron pistons expand less when hot than do aluminum pistons.

As for high compression pistons? Opinions vary. Many people feel that one of the new high compression heads does more good than high dome pistons do. The shape of the combustion chamber helps as much as the amount of compression does.
Anything you do to add power, also adds stress to the crank and bearings, eventually maybe resulting in some future problems. For this reason, it is generally not recommended to use both a high compression head and high dome pistons on the same model T engine. Either one can boost power slightly, and likely not cause much in future problems.


Are you planning to buy pistons from the USA? Or do you have sources closer to home?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 06:01 am:

Thank you for detailed answer, Wayne!
Very helpful.
Yes, all of parts Im going to buy at Langs. I don’t know the parts store in Europe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 06:20 am:

Remember to mark the position of the flywheel relative to the crank shaft - they can go together in two positions 180 degrees apart, and the runout at the output shaft of the transmission may differ.

It's best to measure the runout when assembling the engine again so it's not too much, it can reduce the life and performance of the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 07:40 am:

Michael,

The first photo in your collection of photos is absolutely beautiful. It should be on the cover of a magazine.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 07:44 am:

Michael,

Watch Mike Bender's videos at modelt-tips.com/. Well worth the time. The best advice I have found.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Humble Northern Michigan on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 11:12 am:

Ford service manual and the model t ford club of america engine repair manual are a must have. Do not tear into your engine without them. General engine know how and experience is not enough for a model t engine tear down and repair. Read the books then ask the questions. Best of luck with your repairs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 11:24 am:

Neil, thank you!)
Jeff, I have this book and use it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 02:54 pm:

Michael, I was amazed at the improvement balancing the motor and transmission parts made towards a smooth running motor. Mike Bender has an excellent video of how to do this in your home shop. PK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 03:05 pm:

More pics from today

https://www.drive2.ru/l/516141545477374940/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 03:07 pm:

Pat, is there the link?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James M. Riedy, Sandusky, Ohio on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 04:24 pm:

Michael, I believe this is what you are asking about. Look under Engine Projects Details. Jim

http://modelt-tips.com/engine/projectsandtips/00welcome.html

(Message edited by tfan on November 07, 2018)

(Message edited by tfan on November 07, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 07:53 pm:

Michael,

Those pistons are for some sort of 4-valve per cylinder engine, not Model T. Buy a good set of aluminum pistons made for the Model T. I suggest the standard crown, not the high compression version. That way you can put a high compression head on later if you want. Make sure they are cam ground and not round. The round pistons will bind in the cylinder when they get hot.

Make sure you view the Mike Bender videos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 11:33 pm:

Mike Bender videos are awesome! Will use it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Benoit on Thursday, November 08, 2018 - 04:43 am:

I stumbled across this video of your car on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9X3JJ26-g

Looks good!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 08:11 am:

One more question. My valves are already is of the biggest oversize (1/32): 8.8 mm. And they are loosen. Is it possible to drill bigger holes and install bronze bushings to use standard valves again? What experience is there in this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 02:09 pm:

How loose?

You can go with modern valves but I think they are .342 which would not buy you any reduction in the looseness. I would still suggest modern valve as the spring keepers are much stronger.

I was not happy with the fit of my modern valves when I put my engine together but it seems to be fine without any excessive oil burning. I was taught to put my finger on the bottom of the valve guide and pull the valve up. If there was a pop then the fit was OK. No pop in my engine.

See Mike Bender's videos for details.

You can buy replacement guides but you really need to take the engine to a machine shop to get them installed. While you are at the machine shop, get the hardened seats installed.

Modern engines use a special gasket that allows some oil seepage for lubrication. You need a little oil on the guides. I could not find any seals that would fit. Other members suggested a rubber gasket and light spring to keep it in position.

Depending on how loose the valves are in the guides, you can just go with the loose fit. I think I saw a lot of carbon in your cylinders and if that was coming from the valves then you have to do something. Check to see if there was a lot of oil on the intake valves or in the intake passages under the intake valve heads in the block.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 02:19 pm:

Michael,

I took another look at the pictures you posted and it looks to me like there is oil coming up the valve stems, but it is hard to see exactly what is happening so I might be wrong.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 03:09 pm:

Michael, I have a motor I build last winter that had bronze guides installed at standard diameter. I wanted to use SBC valves so I reamed them out to accept the modern SBC valves. Also I have a motor in my Roadster that is 60 over. I honed the bore that was straight and used 80 over rings and filed to the correct gap. The motor I built last winter has an 80 over bore, no problems. Both motors have flat top aluminum pistons and use high compression heads. These motors run very well. The head on the 80 over motor, a Prus, needed some relief work to clear the pistons without a head casket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 05:32 pm:

Pat - Please understand,......not being critical,.......just trying to help. I'm an old guy that doesn't "text" via cell phone, however, so much "texting shortcuts" are creeping into written English language, and you have to remember that it might be that somebody like Michael Gotesman, even tho' his English is very, very good, he might have trouble with "texting" type acronyms like SBC.

Michael, just in case you were not aware,....SBC is texting type abbreviation for "small block Chevrolet".

Again, not being nasty here, but texting acronyms drive me nuts, 'cause I'm a grumpy ol' geezer that's just barely computer literate, and NO texting at all, but it must be especially hard for Model T guys in places like Russia, Germany, Sweden, etc, etc,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Dugger on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 06:01 pm:

Three Cheers for Harold-----I have my phone blocked for the texting function
it is either voice of leave a message

Bill D


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 06:22 pm:

If you want to run the stock head, the high compression pistons are great! Something that I did during the rebuild was to drill extra drain back holes in the block to allow oil in the lifter box to drain back into the pan. If the valve cover fills up with oil, they will definitely suck up oil in the intake valves and smoke. Good luck and nice video! (even if I couldn't understand the words)Thanks for posting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 06:40 pm:

You're right Harold. I should have spelled it out especially in light that Machael is in another country. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 08:00 pm:

Part of it is "just me" Pat. Besides being very "technology challenged", and admittedly, probably a bit "dense" as well, which I now attribute to being 77 years old, I usually have to have things "spelled out" to me to get it thru' my thick skull!

For example, having been born, raised and grown up in the Chicago area, I transferred out to Deer Lodge, Montana with the Milwaukee Road, and lived there for about 10 years 'till the Milwaukee went bankrupt. I remember when we first moved there, there were a few local words, phrases and terms that were lost on me for awhile. I finally had to ask somebody what the heck the "borrow pit" was! Where I came from, that was the ditch! And what I always knew as the glove compartment was the jockey box in Montana! And there were others too, but it is interesting,....the variation in terms in different parts of the country. And nowadays,.....texting acronyms! Heck,....it took me a couple years to learn what "LOL" meant! And I'm still not sure, because whenever I asked someone (usually one of my 16 grandkids, I'd get a different answer!

Anyway, thanks for not taking offense at my little attempt to help. I kinda' thought you wouldn't be offended, 'cause as I say, I lived amongst you Montana folks long enough to learn about "good people", especially having been a former "Chicagoan"! .......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Gotesman, Tula, RUS on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 07:02 am:

So I can use the bronze guides. Is it possible to buy or better to produce?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 08:00 am:

Hi Michael, I really enjoyed seeing the photos of your 24 touring. I also looked at the post on U-Tube. I had and drove a 1923 touring for 30 years.
Ford Motor Company purchased it from me to be used in Greenfield village.Good luck with your motor overhaul.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 08:47 am:

I would buy them only because I don't have the machinery to make them. It is also important to use the right material. One source I found is https://goodson.com/collections/valve-guides. You can google "where to buy bronze valve guides" to see if there is a supplier in Europe.

The holes to install the new guides have to be drilled accurately both in size and position. A milling machine is needed. Once the block is on the milling machine you can also machine the cutouts for the hardened seats and later deck the block. You will need to cut new seats for the new valves. A machine shop that specializes in Model T or old engines is best. There must be some very good machine shops near where you live.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 08:55 am:

Michael,

A quick Google search for "small block chevy valves with oversize stems" found some valves that have oversize stems. That might be the way to go. You would also have to get an oversize reamer.

Neil


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