I've been asked to bring a 1904 model B Ford back to life after many years in storage. The car is very complete and pretty original. I feel very fortunate to get to work on such a rare and historic car. B # 51 was delivered by FJ on Wednesday. I took the body down to San Diego today to get painted then took the rear end out to check it out. There is a lot of work to do, the plan is to have it running for new London to new brighten in MN this summer.

Looks like a great project, Kim. I am sure you are up to the challenge.

KD called & asked me to haul a couple cars from the place where The Rip Van Winkle Model T was stored a few years ago.

We arranged to meet first at Bakersfield Swap Meet.

He has been my Friend ever since ....

Through that Friendship remarkable things have happened for me.

This Ford Model B 51 is also Ford Model B 52.

In my opinion - the most original unrestored complete Ford Model B known to exist.

To lay hands on what I consider to be the most significant alphabet letter Pre T car is the greatest honor I could ever imagine.

Many months of planning preceded this - the story of this car is truly remarkable - that it stands a chance of running again is absolutely incredible.

This would not be possible without the efforts of KD.

Thank You My Friend

FJ

OH, that again makes me wish I lived closer to you KD! I do hope you can indulge us lesser souls with updates on the progress? I also am curious about the color. Is that reddish part of the color, or base coat? I know the model B I saw at Edward Towe's collection years ago was green. But I don't know for certain that was correct either.
What an incredible car to be able to work on.

Thank you for the additional information FJ. Glad to see you posting here again!

Kim,
I live in San Diego and would love to get a look at the car. Is there any chance you could PM me and let me know where the shop is?
If this is a problem, I understand. It's just nice that this one is being brought back. Thank you,
Bob Bishop
San Diego, CA
MTFCA and MTFCSD

What a fun job to take on! Be sure to keep the photos and updates coming.

How cool. I have a lot of respect for those of yall who take on the really old ones for whom parts aren't readily available.

WOW, Thanks for sharing.

The engine has peaked my interest. Is there any information about it?

The engine looks very much like the pre V8 Cadillac. I just love those copper barrels when they are polished up.

John,

KD can correct the following if necessary ....

The Model B cars were assembled of other manufactured components at Piquette.

The Ford name appeared only on the hubcaps & on a tag on the left inside rear of the radiator at the top.

The engine number(s) were the only identification number(s) for the respective car.

The engine had numbers stamped on the cylinder head - the block - ?

The Ford Model B 52 has the serial numbers 51 and 52 stamped on the engine.

The 1904 Model B Number 52 is widely accepted as the only surviving largely original unrestored Model B vehicle to exist.

In reality - the Texas title listed it as Serial number 51.

The new title recently issued listed it as Serial number 51.

FJ

Wayne, the red on the body is primer. The hood is still original paint and is dark green. This car will be a darker green then the car at the Sacramento auto museum.
Bob, email me at kdmks AT att.net. You can take a look at the car anytime. The body is at Ray Wells shop in El Cajon, I'm sure he would let you take a look at it there.
6 model B cars exist that I'm aware of, there may be a seventh.

Neil,

The frames were painted yellow I believe.

You are looking at what very well may be the original yellow paint.


FJ

Thanks for posting this info. I'm sure that the folks that use the Early Ford Registry forum would also like to see this info posted there.

Personal comment removed

The serial number is stamped on the flywheel of the A,AC, C, F and B. A title means practically nothing as most all states had no titles at that time. If an auto of this vintage has a title, it was more than likely made many years after the manufacture, and the owner could use any number (s)he chooses. If #51 is on the flywheel, you are golden. If not, it’s just a makers assembly number and could be hundreds off of the actual serial number. Going from my poor memory, I think FoMoCo made about 500 of them, and wholesaled most to England because they weren’t a very good auto. It was a stepping stone to model T, but not the direction Henry wanted to go, at $2000 each. Extremely prone to freeze cracking , among other flaws. It’s likely an early one, because it has a step plate and not running boards. I love the B !

Tim, you can say the things you want to say, and add to conversations without insulting people.

It's off-putting and diminishes the things you add. You do have some good input, but I wish you'd use more tact.

Jim's a good man and there's no need to be crass.

Kim...a quick question.

Are the parts of the car that are believed to be retaining original paint going to be stripped and repainted?

I see castle nuts on the journals. What kind of nuts are on the con rods? Very nice looking car.

Tim, there is no need for name calling. If it wasn’t for Jim, this wouldn’t have ever happened. He also hauled the B 1000 miles for free. As far as model B history and knowledge, most of the most knowledgeable people have passed on. So it will be a learning experience for me.
There is no number on the face of this flywheel. There is the number 51 stamped on the crankcase in two places. Before someone says that’s the part number, B 40 is the crankcase complete, B 41 is the top half and B 42 is the lower half. This car has been titled 51 for a long long time.
Don, I don’t know about the under carriage paint, it depends on time. I’ll need to repaint the rear axle at least.

Thanks Jim, that engine is very unique. I'd like to find out more about how it functions.

This is all very interesting. I'm looking forward to following this restoration as it's being done. Thanks for the pictures given above. I hope many more will be posted as the work goes on.

Thanks you Kim and Jim for this.

Keith

Personal comment removed

From my experience , these pre T parts were made in small batches, with stamped numbers everywhere. They have no relation to the actual serial number of the car. Kim, you certainly know that. I have a fair bit of knowledge about As,Cs and Fs and some non ford horseless carriages. These autos were made one at a time, fit one at a time, and often had numbers on parts or subassemblies so they could remain together. FORD was an assembler at this time, not a manufacturer. It’s possible the first parts to be delivered were the last to be assembled. AGAIN, here we have a testosterone thread starting about the earliest, best, most original , ad naseum , yada yada.......very similar to the waterpump thread. If that chassis has original yellow paint on it, I’ll kiss , the guy who needs to use an alias, hiney in the middle of a busy highway. Not sure how wise it is to have a quarter million dollar auto transported for free by a guy with no insurance. Probably not something I’d do.

For those interested in the Ford Model B:

@ Link removed at request of the EFR

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

On this link - scroll down to visit Pages 6 - 9

" Serial #52 is owned by Cecil Ralston of Gruver, Texas and is the only one left that is un-restored.
It was bought from a blacksmith shop in Elmira, New York. "

@ Link removed at request of the EFR

I became interested in the Ford early alphabet letter cars that preceded the Model T in April of this year.

I became interested in this particular Model B shortly after that.

My opinions expressed here are because of that interest which have been followed by personal research.

FJ

Yes, it is a treat to sit back and watch someone take on a task like this. Most of us can only dream of such a project. I appreciate the attention to detail and authenticity this car deserves.
It found the right caretaker.
Rich

It is troubling that you choose to post recently copyrighted materials. If you actually read the EFR article, you will see that our editor received permission from the Bulb Horn publication before it was reprinted. The EFR newsletter is itself copyrighted and available to dues paying members. NOT for reproduction without permission. I was looking forward to this thread until your involvement and spewing misinformation.

I love the car, All drama aside, Its an amazing piece of history no mater how it came together. Keep up the good work Mr Dobbins. Glad FJ was able to step up to the plate and assist with the transportation of such a rare piece of history. I'm confident FJ sweated every mile until this car made it to its final location. I wish there was a way I could be there for the run of all the amazing historical cars.

THAT’S SPECIAL ! The website editor removes comments of mine but allows people to post copyright material. Harry Truman said, “ I don’t give them hell, I just tell them the truth and it sounds like hell ! “

Recently there was photos of this Rare model B published in a garage -Kind of dark (Somewhere ?) I thought I copied them but I guess I didn't Does any one else have them and post them here. I would like to add them to our File on this car -Don

Tim, can't see it myself that it's a copyright breach, nothing taken from the publication and re-printed, there would be no copyright on a link to read something on the internet for all to be able to find and read anyway.

Don, are you talking about the series of photos of the model B that was for sale in Hemmings? If so, I copied all those photos and can post them if everyone wants to see them. For those who didn't see them, this car was advertised for $440K. I'm not sure of the owner, but it was in Texas and I don't believe the car Kim Dobbins has now is the one that was for sale. I am curious if this car is the one I saw years ago in Oregon?

Tim, you obviously have a problem with Freighter Jim. Please keep it off the forum. It adds nothing and just makes you sound like a bitter, old man. This forum is about Fords, mainly Model T and is not a place for anyone to vent their personal grievances. This is my opinion, only.

As for Jim, he seems delightful to me and shares some of the nicest photos. I don't need any car hauling.
It seems most appreciate his presence here.
Rich

Selectively censoring comments can make a person sound pretty bad. I’m all for sharing truthful, historical info.

Lets just enjoy the fact that this historical vehicle is being preserved. No nitpicking and no drama. So much of our history has been destroyed so lets celebrate the effort to preserve some history.

I appreciate the rare views of a rare car! I've seen a few B's, but how often does anyone get to look inside of one?? In my case, just right here!! So, to all those who made this possible, and who shared the images here: Thank You! Nice Christmas gift!

The original advertisements only show a 3/4 right side view. Are their original photos or drawing showing the other side? What acetylene generator did it use? It must have been a side mount.

Thanks for the great views of a wonderful car. If everyone would relax and understand simply enjoy these cars our hobby would he so much better.

BIG WOW!!!!!

Hank in Tin-A-See

Les -YES that is the ones I am looking for -Don

Les -Forget the Hemming's Car Photos ---Its a 1905 ---I found them -Don

I wonder who bought that one

This B Is not the one for sale in Texas. Les, it’s probable the one you saw in Portland.

I started taking the rear apart. Looks like a pretty beefy rear end, made by Spicer I think. The gears look in pretty good shape, there was no backlash. The pinion gear in peened on. The B has rear brakes only, no transmission brake.

Kim Dobbins, thanks for sharing the pictures of this rare car. It looks like really a great opportunity to work on and I'm sure you'll do very well with it! And yes I agree, just enjoy the hobby and the cars, no need for any drama to put a damper on the enjoyment. Merry Christmas!

Please keep the pictures coming! - Much appreciated

Very, very cool.
Thank you gentlemen. Very much.
A B is like an early T TWICE removed!

Copyright

The simplest version

Its a free for all if you use the material for educational or personal use

You can make say a widget puller for personal use and not breach a Patent

The second you make money form it your a dead man

You cant use a copyright image in a listing to sell something on say ebay. Lets say your selling a widget and you take an image of the web to show how its used. You are making a financial gain and a dead man


You make your own widget maker but use it to make gizmos and sell those .Money changing hands and your a dead man


The forum is educational

The forum is free to members and NON members but why ? If you REQUIRE a membership and money changes hands the site is a dead man if people post Copyright material .Images are used to make money for the site .Its the MONEY part that's the problem


While its a free for all for educational use its nice to ask the copyright holder. More so if its personal images or property . Just call it the law of Nice To Do. Sectin A , Subsection 3 Paragraph 2

In all these years don't you think a lawyer would have a few paid holidays out of claims on this site if it was not educational. Images may have been pulled for PRIVACY reasons under the law of Nice To Do

That was the simplest version I can offer

.

How do I know the above?

I have many many images used without being asked . When its for their personal/educatinal use I can do nothing. When they are making money from it I hunt them down like the dogs they are

If they asked first before making money from it I say thanks for asking feel free to use it but credit me as the owner

Thanks Hans, now we are educated! a little wiser for do's and don'ts.

Its the law of Nice To Do .Steal from me and I will cut off your hands. Ask to borrow it, respect my wishes and take it for as long as you need it

Thank you Hans S. Well put, simple, and although not exactly in legal terms, basically accurate. I hope a few people pay attention to it.
As for some of my background. When attending college many years ago, among other things I studied Business Law (hated lawyers even then, and didn't pursue that any further). Also, thirty years in communications systems contracting and small cable television systems. We had to deal with intellectual property rights quite a bit.

If you pay me by the hour I can give it to you in not less than 5000 pages with a disclaimer at the end saying there are always exceptions. As its provided for free you may have lost interest in the post before the end so I did my best but forgot the line there are always exceptions to every rule . Take I am never wrong ,but sometimes I am off the mark a bit , not wrong .The Administrator is there for the exceptions

In the spirit of the law of Nice To Do . I failed to thank Frank and Wayne for there kindness of my best effort with the KISS principle

Thank you Wayne and Frank

Great KISS version Hans!
I am sure there are many exceptions. I believe someone who by all accounts knows very little about collector cars posts protected pictures & other peoples info for the explicate reason of keeping his business relevant on a forum would be a "No No"

Kim,
Thank you for posting.

I had the good fortune to crawl around this rare bird with Kim and the owner earlier this year. A remarkable survivor, and now Kim will get it back on the road where it may be seen and appreciated.

I have a few Model B tidbits I'll post on another thread so as not to interfere with this one.
Merry Christmas,
Rob

Hi Harry. If the Administrator works full time and abused for half a job done then that tells you there are a lot of them and maybe a few law of Nice to Do items to fix

Sorry for the hijack but I see the copyright mentioned all the time

Just seeing the pinion gear leaves you wanting to see the ring gear ..just to see the ratio...

Well for me,I will never be able to afford a early car and this thread and the car covered by it is of alot of intrest to me.I hope folks can get along and keep this thread going.
I got a weird message when i tried the second link posted but the first 1 shows the engine specs and so forth.More hp than a T!

Thank you Hans for the layman's explanation of copyright.

I have removed the links to the EFR material at the request of the EFR and from a phone call of one their members.

This is under Hans rule Section A Subsection 3 Paragraph 2

Thanks Chris.

I took out the steering box because it has excessive play while everything else seems pretty low mileage. The unit consists of a brass ball with internal threads. A steel gear which connects to the pitman arm fits inside the brass ball.

Thank You Kim for sharing!

Hank

Interesting!

The internal threads in the brass bell are fairly worn and there is no way to adjust it. Seems like the best way to fix it is to bore out the brass bell, install a steel sleeve and re machine the threads.

That is a really coarse thread. Four threads to make it fit the gear. Wow that is something.

Maybe offset bushings in the housing could move the bronze bell and/or the steel gear closer together to tighten up the play?

Now that's what I call "fiber grease".

Can you rotate the bronze bell a quarter turn so that the gear is riding in a different groove or place in the groove? Some play when off center while turning is Ok as long as there is little play on center when going straight ahead.

Jeff, it's worn all around. It's at Don Skille's house if you would like to take a closer look at it.

Can you elongate the holes and slot just a bit so the gear can engage deeper? It is just pulling on one side, so you should be able to get it deeper in the bell. A few thousands of an inch might make a big difference.

Bill, That sounds plausible, and may be the bushings could use some work?

Remake the male gear and cut it wider. Scott