Rear axle keys tapered on one end

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Rear axle keys tapered on one end
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier, MS. on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 04:20 pm:

My axle keys have a taper for about 1/2 inch on one end. Where does the taper go? Towards the hub or the axle, and inside or outside of wheel?
I don't have a wheel puller yet so I want to make sure I get it right the first time :-)
Thanks,
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 04:49 pm:

Bob

Ford Service Manual, Chapter XVI. Page157. Fig 358
"...hub key the tapered end of the key should point toward axle housing as shown..."

If you look at the key way in the axle shaft, you will see it tapers out at the end toward the axle housing, that is why the key is tapered...to fit into it. The surface of the key on the axle shaft should be a square.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier, MS. on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 05:04 pm:

Thanks Dan. I thought that would be right, but just wanted confirmation.
Thanks again,
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 05:36 pm:

Bob

Glad to help out.

When you get your rear wheel puller, the task is either easy or difficult. Sometimes those hubs are stuck fast, and a big huge whack from a large hammer is needed, then you'll hear a crack of thunder as the hub pops off the axle shaft.


Or.....sometimes the wheel just glides off ... :-)







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Denis Chicoine, MD on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 05:48 pm:

I had a Ruckstell that one of my patients gave me. It had been sitting on the hill behind his ranch for the past 65 years and the axles were buried in the dirt. I squirted the nut with "break free" and took it off. 2-3 whacks on the tightenned puller is all it took. The inside looked about like Dan's above. 65 years of rain, snow, ice, and dirt and it popped off!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Kriegel on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 09:29 pm:

Dan I am getting ready to remove a rear wheel QUESTION what is all the grease gunk inside the wheel hub? I also am not familiar with the brake yet I assume it is buried in the grease?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 10:07 pm:

David

That is years of grease escaping from the rear pumpkin down the axle shaft and into the hub and drum. Plus added grease placed at the outer Hyatt bearing grease cup, all pouring into the drum.....rather bad oil and grease leaks :-) The Ford method of felt seals was the best there was in 1909....use the modern stuff today and stop those leaks.

Now here is the same axle end, all cleaned up, fitted with NOS iron brake shoes, new brake springs, and new modern neoprene axle grease shield. Not seen is the modern neoprene inner seal which was fitted into the axle housing prior to placing the Hyatt sleeve and Hyatt outer roller bearing.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 09:04 am:

Dan,

It is not often that we see an original iron brake shoe in one piece. Somewhere I read that they were supposed to be cut in two at the pivot bolt so they did not break elsewhere when in service. Then it pays to have the springs on with the open end out so that the shoe is pulled toward the backing plate. Or have I got it all wrong?

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 10:09 am:

Allan

My belief is they just break there on its own. Cast iron is brittle. Don't know why someone would 'split' it. That's one reason why the repro lined iron shoes are hard to fit...two pieces!

The bolt threaded into the backing plate should be left a tad loose on the one-piece shoe to help prevent break there... a nut and cotter on the other end keeps it in place just fine. That bolt is threaded and has a long smooth shoulder for the brake shoe to pivot on.

Not sure if the spring hook location makes too much difference, the method shown in the Ford Service pic is what I did.

Now said, the better shoes are old time aftermarket emergency brake steel lined shoe. I fitted those to my current project, along with repro AC outside brakes (Ruckstell equipped). The lined emergency brake shoes are very good at holding the T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 02:13 pm:

I was wondering about the importance of the inner seal when you install the modern outer, as in Dan's picture.
Seems that the important thing is to keep oil and grease from leaking onto the brakes, but does the W600 hurt the Hyatt if it leaks past the inner seal, and likewise, does it hurt the diff if some grease gets mixed in with the W600?
Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 02:42 pm:

Roar

Mixing the lubes probably is no big hurt. Many times engine oil runs down the drive shaft and gets in the rear lube, just change it regularly, as for Hyatt grease turned in at the axle grease cup, without a good seal you can have excess grease get in the brake drum thru a poor outer seal, so I like the modern outer.

In my experience, the inner seal is the most important. Over the years used the big felt donut, stuffing it in was hard to do. That didn't work well, perhaps torn up on my install.

Then used the repro Ford leather and steel toothed ring, that thing didn't seat well either. That stiff leather just didn't seat on the shaft.

Once the modern neoprene inner was avail, those I have used work swell. I use 600W lube. But in the Ruckstell, lighter 90-120 or so, no leaks with the neoprene inner.

As for the outer, I like the modern alum cap with the neoprene rings.

The Ford original steel washer (needed because the Hyatt bearing cage bumps it), the felt, and the steel cup combination is much improved by the modern alum cap with neoprene. Others may like the felt, but I only use felt in the hogshead seal, and the steering shaft bracket. Every where else on the T you need a grease seal on revolving shafts, modern is better. IMO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 04:51 pm:

Thanks Dan,
Seems like you have been successful in how you do the sealing up to keep the brakes dry. I am sure I have a lot of grease in my brakes, and there may be an advantage to that the day I get around to take the wheels off, as they just may come off easier.
But, as we all know, grease and oil on the brakes don't work so good. A good outer seal is a must, but once that end is sealed up good with a modern seal, is the inner seal all that critical?
I'm just thinking of ways to make the job easier when I get around to working on the rear axle. Just call me lazy.
Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 02:49 am:

Many of the original keys I have had were tapered on both ends. The tapers go down as the key-ways taper up on both ends.
Drive safe, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 12:33 pm:

I agree with Wayne Sheldon, I always taper both ends of the keys.

Broken Axle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 01:09 pm:

Guess you could taper both ends, but having the square end for the hub seems like more purchase of the key to keep it in the axle key way. The taper toward the axle housing.




Not having a taper at the outer end of the key works for me.


Fit of key into hub key way is good this way.

Oh...that wire wheel hub I found at Chickasha, is good one, but you can see someone, sometime drilled three extra holes in the drum.

They needed relief from axle lube pouring into the drum, bad seals of course!

Thought about leaving the holes, but when you fit a wire wheel to this hub you can see the holes, would just let water in when cleaning the wheels. Wire welder time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 09:42 am:

Dan,
It would appear that you have no respect for Murphy's Law, "What can go wrong, will go wrong"
Relying on the cast shoe breaking in the right place of its own free will is not something I could get away with.

I agree the cast repro shoes are a beast to fit. At best, they are to be considered semi-finished, and need much filing and grinding to make them fit well.

Over the years, the hooks on the end of the return springs tend to loose the offset on the hook end so that the spring no longer pulls through the centre of the coil. It is offset to one side. If they are installed as your photo shows, they will tend to pull the shoe away from the backing plate. Installed the other way around tends to pull them towards the backing plate. This works well when installing those pesky repro cast shoes.It also keeps the spring coil that little bit further inboard, away from the hub nuts which can rub on them if there is wear in the axle and hub.

I have had lined steel shoes like the ones you have fitted in conjunction with the AC brakes and they do hold a T well. However, I did manage to bend the lower end and jam them up. The action of the brake cam pushes the shoe to the drum above the cam, but if you put too much pull on the lever the cam starts to pull the lower part of the shoe away from the drum. I kinked mine and have found others the same at swap meets. The best ones I have seen have castings on the ends of the shoes instead of the bent steel end.

I am part way through fitting Bennett accessory brakes to my latest project and will post pictures of my progress when I have gotten a little further with them.

Allan from down under


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