Big touring car. Identify ?

[Rich Bingham]

Any thoughts ?

[Burger in Spokane]

Could it be a Pierce ?

[Rich Eagle]

Bird hunters. Great photo.
I would say it's a 1915 Oldsmobile. Possibly 1916. Most likely a Model 43. "The one-man" top was standard in '15. The slanted hood louvers were an Overland feature. This was a 4 cylinder engine but the 1916 Model 44 had Olds's first V-8. I believe it had vertical louvers. The model 55 had a six cylinder.

[Rich Bingham]

Thanks, Rich ! I thought Oldsmobile, but don't know enough to be sure. Burger, the hood to cowl proportions look like Pierce, I wonder what year they incorporated headlights into the fenders ?

[Rich Eagle]

It does look a lot like a Pierce Arrow. Even the lights could be from that angle.
This has been floating around for years.

[Rich Bingham]

The fender on our "Olds" is banged up, but I'm pretty sure the headlight isn't integral. Interesting when the design was patented. Years ago I recall seeing a stunning 1914 Pierce touring (light grey) with a cast aluminum body. I don't recall if it had integral headlights. Oddly enough, at some point the State of New York outlawed those signature Pierce fender lights; cars sold in state had to have a conventional format.

[Rich Eagle]

I couldn't find much on the aluminum bodies. This RM photo shows a bit of how they looked inside. The rough cast and number embossment show. They used wood framing much like the sheet metal bodies.

"Pierce Arrow bodies were cast for several years - from 1912 until 1917 or 1918. The cast bodies were enormous sand castings and were often welded as part of the assembly process. The casting thickness was between 1/4 and 1/8 in. thick, and the bodies were of good appearance, durable and structurally sound. The six-cylinder engines produced by Pierce-Arrow were cast in pairs and secured to aluminum crankcases."
From https://www.anodizing.org/page/1stALCar
I knew a fellow in Utah who helped his Father-in-law restore Pierces. They did cast some parts of bodies but I didn't get to see them.
Maybe someone has more info on the cast aluminum bodies.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Some Pierce Arrow facts. The first year for the fender mounted headlamps was the 1913 model year. Note, the patent shown above was issued in 1914. Patents were often issued dated after an item hits the market. The 1913 headlamps were a one year variation, rather oddly shaped, and looked like an afterthought. For 1914, the headlamps were better integrated, smoother design and looked more like they did through most of the 1920s.

Rich B, I hate to burst your bubble. The "New York law" myth has been debunked. Members of the Pierce Arrow Society have done extensive research through New York records and find there never was any such law. Not in the state. And apparently not in the city. A few theories still around about how that legend may have started.
I understand that original sales records indicate that a lot of Pierce Arrow cars were sold in New York with the fender lamps.

I don't know any details, however during the 1960s or '70s, quite a number of cast aluminum body parts were being recast so that Pierce Arrow touring cars that had been cut down for tow trucks and fire engines could be restored to their original configuration. One pretty much needs to be an insider to find out which ones today are original or partially recast bodies. Pretty much the entire standard touring car body used from 1915 through about 1918 was available. If one had half an original body, one could get whatever was missing. Years ago, I knew a fellow that bought an entire new body hoping to find a chassis. I wonder if he ever got one?

[Rich Bingham]

Wayne, you can bust my bubble any time ! Of course I had/have no more authority for re-quoting the "New York law" story than to repeat what I'd been told years ago, and at one point read in a CCCA publication. Always good to get updated information! Thanks for your notes on the fender lamp and the new castings. Most marques have a "club". Pierce owners have a society

[Rich Eagle]

Yes, thanks for the information Wayne. I would love to see something on the casting of bodies but the internet hasn't showed anything yet.
Rich

[Rich Bingham]

If you find something Rich, I hope you'll post it here. Early approaches to body construction are pretty fascinating. I recall seeing the stripped down "insides" of an "oughts" era touring body. Its compound curves were accomplished by forming the body by gluing up scores of two inch cubes of wood, then hogging down the exterior surfaces to smooth planes.

(We kinda forgot about the Oldsmobile )