Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
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Topic author - Posts: 1518
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Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Maybe a dumb question. Can I use a grounded out T coil on a test stand for something else?
Grounded out meaning the high tension lead grounded to the commutator terminal.
Thinking 6-12 Volts to operate the points. The tests may be several minutes long.
All testing is non-destructive meaning the coil could be cleaned up to use in a box as intended and the tested part will not be ruined.
Sorry, I can't articulate it better at the moment.
Perhaps I don't care to show the tester yet and be told how high-schoolish it appears.
Thanks
Grounded out meaning the high tension lead grounded to the commutator terminal.
Thinking 6-12 Volts to operate the points. The tests may be several minutes long.
All testing is non-destructive meaning the coil could be cleaned up to use in a box as intended and the tested part will not be ruined.
Sorry, I can't articulate it better at the moment.
Perhaps I don't care to show the tester yet and be told how high-schoolish it appears.
Thanks
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
What are you trying to do?
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
The switched voltage and frequency would be extremely high,
The coil could last using 6volts but i doubt it using 12 volts......n
The coil could last using 6volts but i doubt it using 12 volts......n
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Topic author - Posts: 1518
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Above my station? Oh yeah.
"What are you trying to do?" Pat, I'm building a magneto armature tester like a Bosch 253 (1928) or similar to what's shown in the Dyke's Encyclopedia. Both have a set of vibrating points for low tension yet neither will divulge more about that.
Thanks Poppie! I'll keep the voltage down.
Bosch 253. N and maybe W are parts of the points.
"What are you trying to do?" Pat, I'm building a magneto armature tester like a Bosch 253 (1928) or similar to what's shown in the Dyke's Encyclopedia. Both have a set of vibrating points for low tension yet neither will divulge more about that.
Thanks Poppie! I'll keep the voltage down.
Bosch 253. N and maybe W are parts of the points.
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Duane.
The resultant voltage and frequency from the trembler coil points would be virtually the same as that produced buy the high voltage magneto coil primary circuit. go for it.. i would still worry using 12 volts on the coil....n
The resultant voltage and frequency from the trembler coil points would be virtually the same as that produced buy the high voltage magneto coil primary circuit. go for it.. i would still worry using 12 volts on the coil....n
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
I dont know why the concern for 12V. A hot magneto puts out 30V. Unless its an amperage issue?
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Sounds like you plan to significantly exceed the duty cycle. Prepare for it to get hot, or very hot.
If after using it thusly, you intend to replace it back into your coil box, carry a spare coil.
If after using it thusly, you intend to replace it back into your coil box, carry a spare coil.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Like Scott says, prepare for a 'hot' coil - its likely to melt out tar, start smoking and perhaps catch alight.
How do I know - well it was not an intentional shorting mistake that caused the coil to buzz for so long (around 1 minute or a bit less).
How do I know - well it was not an intentional shorting mistake that caused the coil to buzz for so long (around 1 minute or a bit less).
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Topic author - Posts: 1518
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Thank you for the thoughts gentlemen.
If I set a coil alight over time, I'll admit it. I'll watch for heating tho.
I wonder how they constructed a buzz points set that didn't over heat back then which baffles me. But the tests were to work the condenser and coil in the armature. Too bad the books I have won't say how long...
The coil I used for a pattern for the nest to set it in is a fair coil but not rebuilt.
No wonder I have a niggly feeling to dig the worse bucket out Scott. Of coils that is.
Thank you! Much appreciated.
If I set a coil alight over time, I'll admit it. I'll watch for heating tho.
I wonder how they constructed a buzz points set that didn't over heat back then which baffles me. But the tests were to work the condenser and coil in the armature. Too bad the books I have won't say how long...
The coil I used for a pattern for the nest to set it in is a fair coil but not rebuilt.
No wonder I have a niggly feeling to dig the worse bucket out Scott. Of coils that is.
Thank you! Much appreciated.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Duane
they DID overheat back then, if allowed to operate continuously
when running, a coil spends much more time at rest than firing particularly when running on MAG
take a look at a roller timer and you'll note that for every period a coil operates on DC, it cools off for 7 periods, and as mentioned above, the rest period is even greater on MAG due to the fact that it operates with an AC "snap" at some point during the contact stroke compared to a constant DC buzz for the full contact stroke/period.
they DID overheat back then, if allowed to operate continuously
when running, a coil spends much more time at rest than firing particularly when running on MAG
take a look at a roller timer and you'll note that for every period a coil operates on DC, it cools off for 7 periods, and as mentioned above, the rest period is even greater on MAG due to the fact that it operates with an AC "snap" at some point during the contact stroke compared to a constant DC buzz for the full contact stroke/period.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Duey_c,
If you used your HCCT and not a battery to energise your circuit, you would melt before the tar melts,
I find that the best way to test the H/T winding and condenser is to use a generator/starter armature growler, screw the points mounting screw into the magneto rotor and place it onto the growler. switch on then drag a blunt hacksaw across the screw and the rotor shaft making sure that you have a ground wire with a suitable air gap from the H/T slipring otherwise you could rupture the mag winding. The growler will give the rotor winding a heat test by induction also....n
If you used your HCCT and not a battery to energise your circuit, you would melt before the tar melts,
I find that the best way to test the H/T winding and condenser is to use a generator/starter armature growler, screw the points mounting screw into the magneto rotor and place it onto the growler. switch on then drag a blunt hacksaw across the screw and the rotor shaft making sure that you have a ground wire with a suitable air gap from the H/T slipring otherwise you could rupture the mag winding. The growler will give the rotor winding a heat test by induction also....n
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
My brother used a model t coil connected with a turn signal flasher as an electric fencer. He found that the points lasted longer on 6 volts rather than 12 volts.
It lasted for years.
It lasted for years.
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Topic author - Posts: 1518
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Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
A month ago: Here’s where I’m at. Chastising expected/info welcomed.
Doggone it Neal I forgot about a growler and never considered it for testing a magneto armature and condenser.
Art, I’ve heard of that before but without the detail of the flasher to cycle the coil/fencer on and off. With a good battery, that fencer would run for quite a spell and work just like the 110 plug-in fencers. Keep walking the fence to cut weeds. Mom and I walked the fence with a scythe when very young. Forgot that. Cows still got out sometimes.
I hear you Scott and Adrian about the heating. I’ll leave the primary coil more exposed to possibly? dissipate some of the heat?
I’m ahead of myself right here.
You guys provide much thought and that is appreciated. Thank you!
A month later: Finally got back to this project. With coil fussing in between times.
This is about testing the American Bosch DU4/ZR4/U4 etc magneto armatures here.
I told myself I wouldn’t post anything more until it worked and it does. I’d have been surprised if it didn’t.
The primary coil and points act as a vibrator in the circuit to give the armature the on-off-on action like a magneto would from the low tension part from the points and primary coil at speed much like a real armature tester from then or today.
One could get a Phanstiel coil way back then from A. L. Dyke, St Louis for $7.50 or use a Heinze model N coil with the HT grounded.
I didn’t like the idea of any errant High Tension voltage in the mix. It probly would’ve been fine yet I cleaned up the decent T coil I started with and put it back on the shelf.
What is the coil cycle time? The speed at which the point bounces back and forth.
That would give me an idea of how fast an engine would be running for these tests.
1. I dug in the pail for the worst T coil and it is. Worked thru that.
2. About as bad as some of the coils Matt is working with.
3. I needed to unsolder and find the screwdriver slots on the screws to get the rusty nuts off. A nasty crack running thru the top.
Minwax Wood Hardener took care of that and stopped the decay. Hard when dry, it holds the crack together for the carriage-like screws, it dries quickly and at the hardware store in town for $16.
Bed frame tester-1. The bare green wire dangling below the base is touched to the armature frame, the gear (the nut is loose), the plumbers tape or the plated brass in the cradle to wake up the armature.
And you watch the touched wire’s spark.
The black “pen” looking thing is an original ZR HT output. The yellow wire is secured between the HT brush tower and the “pen” at the threads. I’ll get back to the store and find a short Metric bolt that fits so I can do away with the “pen”.
The pair of .22uF orange drop capacitors are soldered in parallel (.44uF?) in hopes of raising the uF rating close to the .47 needed.
At either variable DC or 18V AC voltage, it still looks like a Tig welder. I need to bite the bullet and order a capacitor or five but thus far the cost is near zero.
This armature tested out very poor. Very intermittent, very weak spark. Cap or coils.
It also suggested a dead short in the cap or primary at lower DC voltage.
2nd armature. A better armature. Testing shows a cool vibrator coil. A piece of electric tape did wonders to show the spark from this armature. Slightly intermittent but not bad. Coils might be OK. New capacitor for this one since making the tools to get at it depending on the next test. This armature/ZR magneto MAY have been rebuilt in 11-42.
The camera caught the points (Tig welder) sparks too.
Sacrificing ZR armatures? No. Just testing them.
Both armatures need the condenser ends unsoldered and removed then placed back in the tester for actual coil tests.
It’s sort of like a Bosch #253 or a modern armature tester only the working parts are in your face instead of underneath the base.
Doggone it Neal I forgot about a growler and never considered it for testing a magneto armature and condenser.
Art, I’ve heard of that before but without the detail of the flasher to cycle the coil/fencer on and off. With a good battery, that fencer would run for quite a spell and work just like the 110 plug-in fencers. Keep walking the fence to cut weeds. Mom and I walked the fence with a scythe when very young. Forgot that. Cows still got out sometimes.
I hear you Scott and Adrian about the heating. I’ll leave the primary coil more exposed to possibly? dissipate some of the heat?
I’m ahead of myself right here.
You guys provide much thought and that is appreciated. Thank you!
A month later: Finally got back to this project. With coil fussing in between times.
This is about testing the American Bosch DU4/ZR4/U4 etc magneto armatures here.
I told myself I wouldn’t post anything more until it worked and it does. I’d have been surprised if it didn’t.
The primary coil and points act as a vibrator in the circuit to give the armature the on-off-on action like a magneto would from the low tension part from the points and primary coil at speed much like a real armature tester from then or today.
One could get a Phanstiel coil way back then from A. L. Dyke, St Louis for $7.50 or use a Heinze model N coil with the HT grounded.
I didn’t like the idea of any errant High Tension voltage in the mix. It probly would’ve been fine yet I cleaned up the decent T coil I started with and put it back on the shelf.
What is the coil cycle time? The speed at which the point bounces back and forth.
That would give me an idea of how fast an engine would be running for these tests.
1. I dug in the pail for the worst T coil and it is. Worked thru that.
2. About as bad as some of the coils Matt is working with.
3. I needed to unsolder and find the screwdriver slots on the screws to get the rusty nuts off. A nasty crack running thru the top.
Minwax Wood Hardener took care of that and stopped the decay. Hard when dry, it holds the crack together for the carriage-like screws, it dries quickly and at the hardware store in town for $16.
Bed frame tester-1. The bare green wire dangling below the base is touched to the armature frame, the gear (the nut is loose), the plumbers tape or the plated brass in the cradle to wake up the armature.
And you watch the touched wire’s spark.
The black “pen” looking thing is an original ZR HT output. The yellow wire is secured between the HT brush tower and the “pen” at the threads. I’ll get back to the store and find a short Metric bolt that fits so I can do away with the “pen”.
The pair of .22uF orange drop capacitors are soldered in parallel (.44uF?) in hopes of raising the uF rating close to the .47 needed.
At either variable DC or 18V AC voltage, it still looks like a Tig welder. I need to bite the bullet and order a capacitor or five but thus far the cost is near zero.
This armature tested out very poor. Very intermittent, very weak spark. Cap or coils.
It also suggested a dead short in the cap or primary at lower DC voltage.
2nd armature. A better armature. Testing shows a cool vibrator coil. A piece of electric tape did wonders to show the spark from this armature. Slightly intermittent but not bad. Coils might be OK. New capacitor for this one since making the tools to get at it depending on the next test. This armature/ZR magneto MAY have been rebuilt in 11-42.
The camera caught the points (Tig welder) sparks too.
Sacrificing ZR armatures? No. Just testing them.
Both armatures need the condenser ends unsoldered and removed then placed back in the tester for actual coil tests.
It’s sort of like a Bosch #253 or a modern armature tester only the working parts are in your face instead of underneath the base.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated
-
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:33 pm
- First Name: Neil
- Last Name: Martin
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- Location: Sydney Australia
Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Duey-C,
I would check the formula for caps connected in parallel...n
I would check the formula for caps connected in parallel...n
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Topic author - Posts: 1518
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
- First Name: Duane
- Last Name: Cooley
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 18 Runabout, 24 Runabout for 20yrs, 25 TT, late Center Door project, open express pickup
- Location: central MN
- MTFCA Number: 32488
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: Using just the buzz/points of a model T coil?
Like this table grabbed from digikey? A couple forums said as much then I found this easy table.
Onward and back to the sketchy info pages.
Onward and back to the sketchy info pages.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated