Getting Rattles Back On The Road

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Angmar
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Angmar » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:50 pm

I too am enjoying the thread and am looking forward to videos of the 2 of you driving.
Still crankin old iron

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:51 pm

Thanks Hank. She has a big Trig math test tomorrow so i had to go solo tonight. She'll be out there soon.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by otrcman » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:30 pm

Angie must be approaching the age to get her drivers license. Have you considered the day she takes off solo for the first time ? Will the tail lights disappearing in the distance be the Model T or one of your high power Mopars ?

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:49 pm

Ha! That would be good. She's defiantly going to drive the T. She is already very good at working the steering and brake pedal on the Mopars as I push them around the garage.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:43 pm

So tonight I took apart the steering gear case. For some reason I could only turn the case cap about 1 inch in each direction. Well I put a strap wrench on it and got the cover off. This is why it's important to check everything on your T. In this case I found the following:
IMG_4181.jpeg
take a look at the inside cover:
IMG_4183.jpeg
This is what was binding. The pin was sticking up.
IMG_4182.jpeg
I think I'll be getting a new set of "5 to 1" gears. These look worn out. They all had a 5 on them. I need to check the shaft as well for the "5".
IMG_4184.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:06 pm

Well I was able to order everything I need today and I figured out the my pin problem. I drove out the pins and put them back at the correct hight. One of them had a burr on it and the gear would not spin freely. I turned the pin around and hammered it back in place. Now they are all the correct hight and are tight on the shaft.
IMG_4187.jpeg
IMG_4191.jpeg
IMG_4189.jpeg
I could also see where one of the pins had fallen into the case and made a mark in the brass. I cleaned up the shaft and have it ready to go back together.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:17 pm

So I'm open to suggestions on what to do with the pins of the Steering Shaft. I've read several threads about the subject and I'm thinking that my options are:
1. Get new pins and take it to a machine shop.
2. Get a new shaft from the vendors.
3. Get a good used shaft.

Any other suggestions?

Here is a video showing the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xBTFNLMk4

I'm thinking that this pin gets the most abuse because it bangs against the "Lock to Lock" grove and over time this makes the hole bigger.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by John Warren » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:04 am

Robert, You could use a high strength loctite on that pin and it would work fine. Locktite is some great stuff and where you have it clean, it would work no problem. Red or Green are usually the high strength ones.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:19 pm

I'm going to try the lock tight. My concern is that the pin slides away from the grove in the case. I'm thinking that the pin would hit the top cover before it slips out of the grove.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:33 am

So I got the Center pinion gear to fit the cover of the steering box by putting it in the drill press and some sand paper.
IMG_4219.jpeg
IMG_4220.jpeg

I while back ago I also got the oil pan on.
IMG_4199.jpeg
IMG_4200.jpeg
The other strange thing is..... I bought an Oil Pan and Hog's Head bolt set from Lang's because a lot of the bolts that came on the car were wrong. I seem to have more of the small bolts that screw in than I need. I'll have to see what I have left over. Could be because there are several blot patterns for different years.
IMG_4164.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:56 pm

More progress today. I was able to get the rivets in. This was no easy task. We finally had to file a point on the ends to drive them in. I bought a rivet gun and ordered the anvils for it. I'll use one of them in the vise to be the bucking board.
IMG_4221.jpeg
IMG_4226.jpeg
Then I got the washers and nuts ready to put the Hog's head and pedals on.
IMG_4224.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:55 pm

So tonight I put the brackets in the steering shaft. I got a rivet gun and riveted the quadrant. Not my best moment but it's secure and safe now.

Then I decided to put the gears on the end of the steering shaft to see how everything fit. The shaft is stamped with a 5 and so were the old gears. I got a new set of 5.1 gears and they fit but I couldn't turn them. You can see that here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RkjLVoaT-I

Then I tried adding grease and still they didn't move. Am I not understanding how planetary gears work? Am I a dummy because the whole shaft should move?
IMG_4231.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by CudaMan » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:28 pm

Put the cap on and hold the cap while you turn the sun (center) gear, that will make the three planet gears and the steering shaft they are pinned to turn. :)
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:01 pm

See I told you I was dumb. Ha!


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Allan » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:08 am

Robert, that tool you have at the back of the transmission I presume is some kind of centering device. My question to anyone who wants to respond, are the crank cases/pans machined accurately enough for such a device to be a reliable tool? I have always used the fourth main I am going to install as the guide for pan aligning.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:49 am

Robert,

You said.., "I did this and I did that" pictures speak a thousand words man. I guess the young lady is finally done with math exams. Small fingers, sharp young eyes, and a chance to help Dad all bonuses.

When installing those column rivets, I have found that having someone hold the column level on a piece of 1/2" round stock 6" long that has the end slightly drilled to a recessed to accept the top head side of the rivet (1/4"). Pinch the "buck" in a vice with about 3" exposed, invert the column on a level plane, and use a flat punch and ball pen hammer with multiple small strikes to swell the lower ends. Changing slightly the striking angle will give you a great appearance and attachment. The exposed rivet shank should be no greater than 1 1/2 times the diameter. Double layer some masking tape on the buck head will also protect the new rivet head.

We know who is really doing the work! (Wink Wink!) LOL

Great Progress,

Hank

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:55 pm

Allen, Yes that tool is a copy of the original. You can use the 4 main (I think this is how most do it) I'm giving this tool a try. My 4th main fits good and I find the tool is snug. This is also a 26 so I'm going to put the bolts in the Hog's Head around the tool first and see how much (if any) I have to shim at the block. I've read that if everything is perfect then you won't need shims. Time will tell.

Hank, Ha you found my secret weapon. Just recently I glued nuts on the end of her fingers so she could get them behind the dash and I could put the screws in from the other side. Ha!!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:17 pm

Old age and treachery will over come youth and skill!!!! Now see if she can remove the pebbles from your hand!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:22 am

Ok last night I learned a valuable lesson. Always test fit your Hog's Head before you put all that gasket sealer on. The first thing I did was trimming up the gaskets so they would fit.
IMG_4233.jpeg
IMG_4232.jpeg
The Clutch fork was ok holding it with my fingers.
IMG_4239.jpeg
The cover was difficult. I also found that the shorter blots provided in the bolt kit won't grab enough threads around the 4th main. That had me in a panic because I couldn't get the shorter bolts to thread. I tapped them and finally got some longer bolts to grab.
IMG_4240.jpeg
I also got the steering column tube repainted from all my riveting marks.
IMG_4244.jpeg
Last edited by Mopar_man on Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by CudaMan » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:28 am

Great progress, thanks for sharing! :)
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:02 pm

Just a little more tonight.
First I installed the oil petcock and sight gauge. I know most don't like them and I've seen the clear hose method. I'll be careful and make sure It doesn't get clogged.
IMG_4249.jpeg
Then I installed the Mag post and outside oiler fittings.
IMG_4247.jpeg
IMG_4248.jpeg
Lastly I sealed the 4th main making sure to use assembly lube and making sure the little hole is on the top.
IMG_4246.jpeg
It's coming together.
IMG_4251.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Allan » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:01 am

Robert, the oil sight gauge goes in the bottom hole so you can read the levels between the petcocks. For you to get a reading, you will have to overfill the engine.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:47 pm

Thanks Allen! You would think my dummy brain would have figured that out. I'll make the switch. Keep the comments coming you guys are keeping me from disaster.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:53 am

Why do you have the brass shims between the two top ears of the hogshead and the engine block? They do not belong there. Unless you have an alignment issue that you're trying to overcome, the hogshead ears are meant to come in direct contact with the block. Those teardrop shaped shims are supposed to bolt to the back of the engine block and protrude outwards to keep the felt strip from falling back into the transmission. Unless you used sealant on the felt to "glue" it in place, it can slip out from between the hogshead & block. In reality however, it couldn't go very far before the coil ring stops it.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:20 am

Pages 275-276 Ford Service Manual, Paragraph 1216 specifically: shimming the hogs head to block.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:39 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:20 am
Pages 275-276 Ford Service Manual, Paragraph 1216 specifically: shimming the hogs head to block.
Interesting! I've never had to do that. Thanks!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:21 pm

After I put it together with the alignment tool and then checked it with the 4th main there was a gap between the ears and the block. I shimmed the gap with the same shims that are used for the Mag Ring. I have been told that sometimes you don't need to do this. I also "glued" the felt with gasket cement.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:29 pm

Well tonight the pedals went in.

First thing I did was to fill the transmission with rags.
IMG_4270.jpeg
Next I put the pedals in and springs (the springs are new so they were tough to compress) As you can see I used wire to hold the bands, then i used the Ford tool, and I tied the washer and nut with thread. I didn't want anything to fall into the engine. Ha!
IMG_4271.jpeg
Then i put the cover on after some adjusting.
IMG_4276.jpeg
This was the last adjustment. I have seen the diagram in many posts about pulling the pedal back and measuring 1/4 inch. But I've never seen where to measurement is taken. Is this the rich spot to measure?
IMG_4278.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:38 pm

Here is a video of how my pedal adjustments went. Does this look ok for the first go at it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMXMOgV2oMc

Please let me know if you think it looks ok for the initial adjustment.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:45 pm

Well today we had a big victory. I know there are a lot of you who have put an engine in while sleeping. HA!! Well my neighbor came by but it took my 16 year old daughter to line up the universal joint. I hand packed it with grease and I'll be filling it up with more now that it's together.
IMG_4299.jpeg
IMG_4303.jpeg
IMG_4300.jpeg
I also got the steering column together. Just have to put the gas and spark levers on. I've got a separate post about that.
IMG_4292.jpeg
IMG_4302.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:58 pm

Well tonight I discovered that the two small bolts that hold the top part of the ear of the engine to the frame are too short when you use the braces that go from that bolt to the top of the hog's head. I discovered this after I put everything together including the blocks of wood. So everything came back apart and I got some bolts that were longer. I put one in, put the nut on , and then marked the threads. Now I know where to drill the hole for the cotter pin. All this took me quite a long time to fit my fingers in-between the frame and get it together. My daughter was there to help and made the comment..... "I thought this hobby was supposed to be fun". Ha!!!


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by speedytinc » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:58 pm

Your sight oil gauge is in the wrong spot. Oil level is supposed to be between the 2 petcocks.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by speedytinc » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:01 pm

trans cover is upside down. Lower part of v is to direct oil onto bands. dosnt matter if you are using a screen. Do i see a gasket between D/S mount flange? No gasket there.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:20 pm

Thanks for the info John. So the trans cover should be turned over. Thanks for that observation. I am going to use a trans screen. How come no gasket between the 4th main and the flange of the driveshaft? Will it cause a problem? I'm going to fix the sight gauge as well. Thanks for the input! That's why I post.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:34 am

Looking Good Robert! And of course we know the young lady is doing all the work!

Hank


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by speedytinc » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:07 pm

D/S to 4th main is a ball joint. D/S tube thrusts front to back with acceleration & braking. Adding a gasket adds extra slop & wont prevent grease leaks anyway. Common mistake. Grease will spew around the ball part of the flange when full anyway. You can put a thin layer of silicone. That can prevent a ribbon of grease from between mount bolts, if the flange was not flat.
Thats a good lookin motor you built.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:22 pm

Thanks for the info John. I'll get rid of the gasket. That makes sense.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:25 pm

Well I picked up one of these. First I hand packed the universal joint with grease and now i can top it off with my new cup.
IMG_4313.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:59 pm

So this is the old grease cup I replaced. As you all have pointed out it's not for a T. Looks like it has a rubber gasket around the threads. No markings on it.
IMG_4317.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:04 pm

Got some more done tonight.

I'm getting good at this.... I think. Or maybe not. I just noticed that the wire is not pulling on the correct side of the right bolt. Drat. I'll fix that.
IMG_4316.jpeg
Unfortunately as I was taking off my sight gauge I broke it. Not sure if they make a new fitting.
IMG_4318.jpeg
I also found out that the side bolt that were used before are too short.
IMG_4321.jpeg
IMG_4320.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by otrcman » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:20 pm

Isn't it interesting that you often pick up on a mistake in a photo that you missed with your naked eye ?

I don't know whether the camera presents a different viewpoint than your eye had, or maybe you are taking more time to study the photo. One way or the other, looking at a photo is sorta like having a second person ("different set of eyes") check your work.

Dick

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:17 pm

So we finally got the correct bolts for the engine mounts and put them in.
IMG_4337.jpeg
We also put the outside oiler.
IMG_4338.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by MadMax » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:35 pm

Robert, I can’t thank you enough for this thread. I fear I may have walked into quicksand with a ‘21 I recently purchased. The engine ran fine when I bought it. I changed the oil (which was really old, nasty smelling, and thin). When I fired it up, I heard a rattle after I raised the rpms. It came and went quickly. Throttled up again later and a quick rattle. The third time, a neighbor stopped by pointed at the trans. Ughhh... what I thought may have been junk that caught in the belt that tossed in the compartment may now be a fastener or other piece of metal bouncing around and knocking on the hogshead.

We’ll be checking in the coming weeks, it I fear I may be doing some serious engine/trans work. This ‘memo’ will offer a lot of help and things to consider. Thanks again... with any luck, I may not need it.

Cheers to you!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:41 pm

Max I hope whatever came loose won't be hard to fix. This forum has been a wealth of information. I've learned a lot.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:58 pm

Max

stop running that engine

every time from now on that you hear that rattle, add $100 to the cost of the repair...the repair won't get harder, but it will definitely get more expensive on parts.

It is near certain that a head has popped off of one of the brass magnet-keeper screws and liberated a keeper. That is a significant chunk of metal which has the ability to do considerable damage to other parts. Given the chance, it absolutely will.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:19 pm

Had a great day messing around with cars. First My daughter drove for the first time on a major road to go get lunch. We came home and started in on Rattles.

First Angie applied some sealant to the water outlet or inlet I always forget.
IMG_4347.jpeg
Then she bolted it on.
IMG_4359.jpeg
The car had a water pump on it so I needed this part to put it back to stock. I was at Lang's and he had an NOS one. It was the same price so I got it.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:31 pm

So then it was on to bigger things and we decided to put the starter in while the steering column was out of the car.

The first part was fitting the bendex and attaching the spring. This should be the proper way for the TAB on the washer to go.
IMG_4350.jpeg
Then Angie and I put the starter in with the 4 screws. She then slipped the bendex on the shaft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWeIQ-ZE7Y0

IMG_4353.jpeg
This is a little trick to hold the screw on the screwdriver. Go to your AC unit outside of your house. Take a small piece of sealant from where the tubes go into the house. put it on the screwdriver and you can now stick a screw to it.
IMG_4354.jpeg
Angie then put the cover on. We started the bottom screw and then gently placed the cover on it and then screwed in the others.
IMG_4356.jpeg
Starter is now in.
IMG_4358.jpeg
I had to get the shaft straightened the rest was already rebuilt and working great.
Last edited by Mopar_man on Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:34 pm

Then we put the throttle and timer levers on with the pins. This was a pain using new pins, new levers, and old rods. Took a while to get the holes to line up.
IMG_4357.jpeg
Next we will try the intake and exhaust manifolds.
IMG_4360.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by speedytinc » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:11 pm

3 friendly observations from these last pix's. Trans inspection cover is up side down. Center v goes down. 2 -starter brush cover, if like original, has opening (screw & nut up) in line with input stud. 3, may be an optical dillusion but, steering arm ball doesnt look round. Should be a 1.000" diameter ball.
Keep up the good work.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:21 pm

Thanks I will make the changes. I knew about the cover. I'm going to flip it. I have a transmission screen as well. Is the starter band just because that's where it was placed on the assembly line? Should the generator band go in the up position in line with the cutout?

Oh and the ball is round. It just looks weird in the photo.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by speedytinc » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:52 pm

Up is to get to the easiest access to the brushes. On the generator to adjust 3rd brush.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:49 pm

So tonight I just did a few things. First I installed the Transmission screen as well as sandblasted the transmission inspection door repainting it on the correct side. Ha! Thanks for the correction.
IMG_4365.jpeg
I used sealant between the gasket and hog's head. Then a bit of grease then the oil screen and greased the edges of that as well. I then put sealant on another gasket and sealed it to the cover. More thin grease was added to that gasket as well. Now I should be able to get it apart to clean it.
IMG_4366.jpeg
I also gathered up some more of the parts to go on the engine. All have been rebuilt. Hope it all works. Ha!!
IMG_4368.jpeg
Here is an update of what my daughter and I have done so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkVyrlFdwXE

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat May 01, 2021 10:25 pm

Today we got a lot of the what I would call bolt on's done on the T. My daughter did most of the work this time and her comment was: "We must be doing something wrong. Everything seems to be going together without a problem."
IMG_4396.jpeg
IMG_4403.jpeg
IMG_4404.jpeg
IMG_4399.jpeg
IMG_4400.jpeg
Last edited by Mopar_man on Sat May 01, 2021 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat May 01, 2021 10:30 pm

Some more of what we did. We were able to get all the glands to fit.
IMG_4401.jpeg
It looks like a Model T engine now!!
IMG_4408.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Angmar » Sun May 02, 2021 8:52 am

She is doing a great job!
Still crankin old iron


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Dallas Landers » Sun May 02, 2021 11:46 am

I think she is earning the 1st drive. Good to see her letting you watch and spending time with you.😁

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon May 03, 2021 9:36 pm

Ya know I had one of those nights where I found out I did something wrong and things have to come apart. When I put the valve cover on I didn't notice that the hole where the throttle rod comes through was closer to one side then the other. This caused the hole to end up directly behind the intake.
IMG_4415.jpeg
IMG_4416.jpeg
So I'm thinking that the valve cover has to come off and be turned around. As my daughter said "We must be doing something wrong. Everything seems to be going together without a problem." She was right.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed May 05, 2021 10:19 pm

So tonight I completed the installation of the ANCO Timer. I discovered an issue that was mentioned in a previous post.

The washer that covers the pin has a slot on the bottom. The problem is the slot isn't big enough and the flapper won't spring like it should. You can see the issue here (I'm pointing to the problem area with this yellow file):
IMG_4420.jpeg
This is the slot I'm talking about
IMG_4417.jpeg
I ground the slot to make it bigger.
IMG_4419.jpeg
You can see the whole issue here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7qtWPssSf8

Now the flapper moves freely and the timer is on.
IMG_4422.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed May 12, 2021 4:08 pm

The mail is killing me. I ordered some parts from Lang's and they put it in the mail on the 4th. It shows up on the USPS tracker still in MA! 8 days and it hasn't moved. I know be patient.

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