Update 6/2/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

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JTT3
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Update 6/2/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by JTT3 » Tue May 11, 2021 10:21 pm

Update: 5/16/21: just off the phone with RA Buckley whom is sending a letter of release for gratis use of his wood plans, slowly we are making progress.

Please let the Forum know what full set of Parker plans you have. List year & model. Thanks for your help. Fordually yours, John
Last edited by JTT3 on Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Jim overstreet » Wed May 12, 2021 7:35 am

I have a set of 1925 roadster plans. I agree that this is a worthwhile endeavor and would be willing to contribute to the club.
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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by pre15dale » Wed May 12, 2021 10:40 am

`I have a set of 1914 touring plans and a set of 21 to 25 touring plans


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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Wed May 12, 2021 11:38 am

Put me down for a set of 24-25 coupe

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed May 12, 2021 11:56 am

I don't have a set of plans to contribute but I applaud the effort. This is one of the more worthy projects I'm aware of that will help preserve our cars for posterity. Congrats to you all for your generosity.
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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed May 12, 2021 1:11 pm

This all sounds great and maybe will force the hand of the person that got all the plans, when copyright issues come up! Hope it does not come to that, so carry on.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by mtntee20 » Wed May 12, 2021 1:39 pm

John and Members,

You REALLY NEED to rethink donating all of the plans to the museum. If you read the entire Leon Parker thread, you will find several references to museums that have screwed people donating to them. While the purpose of a museum is to preserve history, the PRIME directive is to MAKE MONEY and most museums do not care HOW. If the plan program isn't making money or not ENOUGH money, the plans are gone. I believe this is the reason the museum does NOT have the plans at this time.

Be Careful, Very Careful or all will be lost.

Terry

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by JTT3 » Wed May 12, 2021 2:02 pm

Terry I get it however most people at the museum have a real stake in the prosperity of the club & hobby. Sometimes we have to take a risk to be proven right. I read intently the entire thread, including the warnings of those that experience the bad side of donations.
However I also read that there was a great resolve to somehow gain access to plans for the sake of future enthusiasts. One thing that you might have missed is the request to make full size copies and to keep the original. That’s what I meant by the cost to the person donating. My question is what do we have to lose? We can complain and nothing positive happens or we can be actionable and make it happen. I’m an open book on this, if anyone has a better idea, let’s do that instead of nothing. So far we’ve had a great response, it’s been less than a day and we are making positive progress. We can’t agree on what type oil to use in a T but I believe we can agree on the need to be selfless in turning an idea into a solution no matter who’s idea it is. Thanks though for your input.

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed May 12, 2021 3:02 pm

As I understand it, only one person has Leon's original plans and so far we don't know who that person is. Everybody else has copies. If I had a copy I would make one for the museum and keep one for me, and have no worries about what eventually may happen to the museum copies. Personally, I expect materials given to the museum will be safe. I like the idea of downloadable PDF's on the club website.
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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by John kuehn » Wed May 12, 2021 3:09 pm

I think that copyright issues is a dead issue. If it was that the people who are making the wood kits thought it was an issue they would not have been making the kits for the last 40 + years from plans they acquired. I had a set of Mel Miller’s plans I sold nearly 20 years ago so either the buyer still has them, sold them or done whatever. And no telling how many times T wood plans have been passed around over the years from others who sold them after they used them for their car rebuild.
Whatever becomes of the plans that were made avaliable to the public 2 or so years ago hopefully some “well meaning small group or individual” that may have acquired them will shed some information what is going to be done with them. If they ever do?!?!

I have always thought that having the MTFCA Museum making them available for T enthusiasts would be a good idea. Maybe somebody or persons who are acquainted with the Museum knows what’s going on with Leon’s plans.
The truth is out there somewhere.

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed May 12, 2021 3:21 pm

You need some entity to be the custodian. There are steps you can take to insure they will be preserved, protected and available. if the MTFCA gets involved their role should be to digitize them and return the originals to their owners. That way nothing is lost.

If the plans were ever copyrighted, the copyright may still belong to the widow unless legally transferred to the new owner. If you plan to sell them you need to understand if anyone truly owns the rights.
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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by dmdeaton » Wed May 12, 2021 3:38 pm

I stated in the other forum that I would help any way I can getting the prints scanned

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed May 12, 2021 4:03 pm

"The truth is out there somewhere." Yes but did Mulder find it? :D
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by George Mills » Wed May 12, 2021 8:25 pm

Y'all would think whoever bought them might speak up?

What y'all are talking about is maybe possible...because even with copyright there is something called fair use doctrine. Fair use = free. Goes like this....1- The item is used for education purposes. 2-The item is a subset of something else, someones critique included as the overview, or further instructions. 3-No money can change hands. The copyright holder can still bring action against you, but with the 3 above in place just about every judge going would side with the new 'editor' and then you get to threaten countersuit for costs on being served notice which will make the plaintiff lawyer go 'oops'?

Need more legal on it, but I think thats how it works. Better yet would be for the owner to be the editor.....


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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Kuhner » Wed May 12, 2021 9:08 pm

I have a set of 1915 to 1920.
I would be willing to copy, if the copy right isn’t a problem.
I see no such mark on my plan. Glad I bought them when I did.
He also sent link for photos. Really nice ones, link doesnt work anymore. Wonder where the photos went.

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Lyndon » Wed May 12, 2021 9:45 pm

On the other thread about Leon Parkers woodworking plans, as I posted back in June, That I purchased his entire collection. Except for the plans, which had already been sold. I did get several wood patterns, some marked and some not marked. I do not know who got the plans but you might be able to fine out thru one of Ron Patterson's old posts.
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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by JTT3 » Thu May 13, 2021 4:09 pm

Hey Forum we’ve got a really good start going on here surely there’s more folks that have full sets of plans from the late Leon Parker collection. Let’s get them back in circulation. Donate donate a full copy of your set. Best John


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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by dmdeaton » Thu May 13, 2021 4:11 pm

How many drawings in a set and what size are they?

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by JTT3 » Fri May 14, 2021 12:38 am

Here’s an update, so a data search for Registered copyright resulted in no copyrights registered under Leon Parker concerning model T wood blueprints, in addition I spoke with a representative of the MTFCA & Museum, both were positive but further work will be required. The best option (thank you George Mills) appears to be digitized ( thank you Danny Deaton) plans with a scale option that would be place perhaps at the resource tab on the site. This would be free for member use, perhaps a small donation to the Club / Museum would be something you’d consider in spirit of good for the club. This is all in the very early stages but hopeful an expedited conclusion will be reached. If anyone has an active number for Mrs Parker, I’d like it to reach out to her for her blessing on this project. If you have / had a relationship with Mr & Mrs Parker and would be willing to make contact and gain approval of the proposed plan in writing even better. I did check with an attorney concerning copywriter law and was told that post 1978 registered copyrights are good for the life of the author + 90 years. Doesn’t seem to be an issue though as a search for registered copyrights at the federal site were not found from 1979 to present. Keep looking and donating a copy of your plan to the effort. I have volunteered to spearhead this but a group effort is needed once approval is confirmed.


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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by dmdeaton » Fri May 14, 2021 7:00 am

👍
Any help I can be just let me know.
I live 20 minutes away from Richmond

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by KWTownsend » Fri May 14, 2021 10:40 am

John-
Many years ago Jay Klehfoth asked me to approach Jennifer Miller (Mel's daughter) about obtaining the rights/permission to be able to reproduce Mel Miller's plans. At the time his plans were still advertised in the Vintage Ford, and when plans were not delivered, they would call the MTFCA office to complain! Jennifer and I e-mailed a couple of times, I called her and bottom line was that she was busy with kids and life and simply not interested. I wanted to make sure they didn't end up in a landfill somewhere!
After Leon's passing I contacted the MTFCA Board about acquiring his collection and was told that it was "not a project that we want to pursue because of the manpower and resources required to be successful with the project."

I got my first set of Mel Miller wood plans when I was a kid back in the 1970's and did the wood for my 1919 touring car. I can remember having to sign a document and swear that I would not copy and sell his plans.

Over the years I have collected the following Mel Miller plans:
1914 touring
1915-1922 runabout
1915-1922 touring
1923-1925 runabout
1923-1925 touring.

I have not see any of Leon Parker's plans and have no idea how they are different.

When the whole copyright issue is resolved, I will be happy to make my collection of wood plans available for contribution to the cause.

Danny, the plans are on 18" x 24" sheets, and some 8-1/2" X 11" and 8-1/2" x 17".

On a side note, I wrote to Mel many years ago asking him about wood plans for a low cowl coupe. He wrote back a couple of times and told me that he did not have plans for closed cars, but did send some pictures and other documents. He truly wanted to help, but he could not. Some of his correspondence was written on the back side of junk mail or whatever he had available to write on and he would ramble on a tangent kind of like a manifesto. It was sad and clear that his mental capabilities were rapidly declining. He gave a lot to the hobby.

At one time Jon Anderson was working on drawing a set of 1913 wood plans.

: ^ )

Keith

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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by JTT3 » Fri May 14, 2021 12:35 pm

Keith my friend that would be great. I don’t have any copies of Leon Parker’s plans but some have stated on the forum that do that there is no register number on the plans or anything that that say copyright. Again I don’t know if that’s the case because I have no first hand knowledge however Mrs Parker in the initial thread on this said there was no copyright and that Leon’s plans were more specific. There is no current copyright that I can find either. Thanks again brother, best John


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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by John kuehn » Fri May 14, 2021 1:00 pm

I bought Mel Miller’s plans for my 1919 Roadster in 1971 for 10.95. I still have have Mels hand written reply letter he sent me about the cost and him encouraging me about how the plans would make it a lot easier to rewood a T.
I didn’t sign anything about not copying them. Digging some more in some old papers I had kept around that time I found an adverting sheet I remember getting at a Swap Meet either in Oklahoma or Texas. It was from a company or individual selling T wood kits. It was called Craftmans Guild and located in Montana. Mel Miller was in Oregon at the time.
They are pretty close together and whether someone else was was using his plans or their own is unknown. So I don’t know.
I sold the plans to an individual years ago like others might have done over the years. You could see them for sale from time to time on T sites. Not much lately though.
Now that T plans are a topic some people are in limbo what to do with them. So the question is what are people going to do with them or give them to the Grandkids for posterity. It’s just a shame people cast doubt about the unknown which has ALREADY happened from companies that are using plans to build T wood kits. At least the wood is being made and can be had if it’s for your car. And we already know whose plans they are using.


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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by 26rdstrpickup » Fri May 14, 2021 4:46 pm

Maybe the club could offer them on DVD like some of the other restoration information. I have a few projects where having wood plans available would make a huge difference.


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Re: What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by 26rdstrpickup » Fri May 14, 2021 5:04 pm

Do drawings of the wood body parts exist in the Ford archives?

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Re: Update 5/16/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by JTT3 » Sun May 16, 2021 3:23 pm

Afternoon fellow hobbyist, Quick update. So you won’t have to scroll down to view any updates I will add them to the 1st entry with the date of the update. We are making progress in making this a reality.


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Re: Update 5/16/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by dmdeaton » Sun May 16, 2021 6:18 pm

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Many thanks


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Re: Update 5/16/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Musketdoc » Mon May 24, 2021 7:31 pm

I need a set of '23-24 Touring plans when they become available!


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Re: Update 5/16/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by Rich Huggins » Tue May 25, 2021 8:37 am

I would like a set of 23-25 touring plans and 14 15 16 touring set for the next car i will buy

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Re: Update 5/16/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by JTT3 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:47 pm

Ladies and gents, we’ve hit a snag but one that’s not insurmountable. I do want to thank the many folks that are contributing and for doing the leg work in trying to get releases. So the Snag is with Ford motor company and staffing at the offices that need to be contacted to get there permission which trumps everyone’s “copy write”. Next month their staffing will be back up and running and I’ll be able to reach the correct powers for a release. So stay tuned we are going to get this done. Best John


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Re: Update 6/2/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by 26rdstrpickup » Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:12 pm

I am curious why you need permission from FMC. I am not a lawyer but I am under the impression that any documentation created prior to 1926 is in public domain, and you are not making copies of FMC drawings. You are not reproducing parts, nor or you using the Ford trademark. You are providing copies of a restoration aid that gives restorers information to rebuild bodies to their original dimensions.


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Re: Update 6/2/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by OilyBill » Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:46 pm

If you read the original post on this subject, you are aware of the grim warning I included in that post.
BUT!
I have another post to make, and this one is more encouraging.
Some of you may be aware of the Franklin Air-Cooled Automobile.
Like a lot of orphan car manufacturers, when they went through bankruptcy, in a LOT of cases, all the drawings and tooling were picked up by people who bought the entire company. This was the case for Franklin.
In the early car era, from 1905 to perhaps 1912, a lot of defunct companies were purchased by the "Black Diamond Automobile Company." I have found indications that at least 30 early manufacturers of primitive automobiles, were bought by Black Diamond. If I can ever find their archines, it will be a real treasure trove of information on very early automobiles.
Later, in the depression years, guys like Dallas Winslow purchased automobile companies such as Franklin. I believe he also bought Cord, Duesenberg, and some other companies.
The remains of the Franklin Co. were eventually purchased by a man named Tom Hubbard, who endowed the Franklin Foundation in Tucson, and turned over all the company blueprints that remained to the Franklin Club.
The Franklin club has taken these blueprints, had them scanned, and they are now available digitally, on-line for downloading by anyone who is a member. So if you have a question about a particular thing on a Franklin, you can consult the original engineering drawings. The Franklin club does NOT have all of them, most of the early car car drawings were discarded as there was not seen to be a need for spare parts for these cars, as so few were built originally, and so few remained, that there was no economic reason to retain them. So a lot of the early Franklin drawings have been lost. But for the Franklin that I have, which is an 11-A Coupe, nearly every drawing is there and available.
I would fully support the idea of the Model T wood-framing plans being scanned, and posted to be freely available to members of the MTFCA. It would be one more inducement to join the club, if nothing else.
If this club does it like the Franklin Club did theirs, then every drawing can be located, examined, and downloaded digitally, in a matter of minutes.
It is a wonderful resource, easy to use, and absolutely WONDERFUL if you own a Franklin automobile.
If you want to see HOW GREAT THIS COULD BE, CONTACT A FRANKLIN CLUB OFFICER, AND SEE IF HE WILL DEMONSTRATE HOW WE GET ACCESS TO FRANKLIN DRAWINGS. i am sure they would be happy to provide access to a few of the leadership members or officers of the club, and then they can quickly see how, when it is done right, it can be a VERY valuable resource.
Sending the drawings off to a custodian, with no real access for members, would be a serious mistake, and probably lead to the circumstances that I raised in my initial posting about the dangers of putting items into the care of a museum organization.
But it can be done well, or, as in the case of the Franklin Club, AMAZINGLY WELL!


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Re: Update 6/2/21 What full set of Mr & Mrs Leon Parker plans do you have?

Post by MHSprecher » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:49 am

I had a digital copy of Ron Buckley's plans made when I copied a couple of sets for people recently with Ron's permission. If he has authorized sharing the plans, I am happy to donate the memory stick that I have to the plans repository so it will be available to those who need it. Ron's source for plan copies has been unavailable. I was able to find a place near me that would copy them, but it was a lengthy process to get the copies made due to the workload at the shop that I used. I could have other copies made for those who want them, but it would be as I have time available. Print cost plus shipping was around $115.

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