13 engine Id. Problems

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CTLeonard
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13 engine Id. Problems

Post by CTLeonard » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:08 am

So I listed a 13 engine for sale and put in the ad that it had been restamped-. It was then brought to my attention that the number pad itself was rather large. It infact is. I have a 12-13-14 to reference to and those do have the smaller no.pad. I don't understand how it can have the cast no. On the block and then have the lg.no. pad. Thank you
IMG_20210623_074518852.jpg
IMG_20210615_111905053.jpg
IMG_20210615_111645125.jpg
IMG_20210615_111655126.jpg


Fire_chief
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Re: 13 engine Id. Problems

Post by Fire_chief » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:11 am

Did someone remove half of the 3?


Fire_chief
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Re: 13 engine Id. Problems

Post by Fire_chief » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:15 am

Someone here listed a 12 block for sale. When I examined it, the pad had been shortened, it didn't have the threaded freeze out plugs, and other things that made it a non 12 block.
At least YOU are being honest...


kmatt2
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Re: 13 engine Id. Problems

Post by kmatt2 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:01 am

I have a March of 1913 block and the back of the block at the water jacket has the early type 1913 block lip.
The early blocks at the back of the water jacket are not sloped like the later 1913 blocks. If it is a modified February 1918 block it will have the sloped back water jacket.


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CTLeonard
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Re: 13 engine Id. Problems

Post by CTLeonard » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:50 am

I have another engine the block reads 10-27-13. The. Small no. Pad says Jan. 14. Other than the large no. Pad on the one for sale they look identical. I can't get over the cast no. On the block. Also- my other engine has thread in freeze plugs; the one for sale. Does not

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Re: 13 engine Id. Problems

Post by DanTreace » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:31 pm

Mike

My guess is when the number boss was milled away to remove the serial number, then 'somehow' the 8 in the 1918 block loss half of its loops to become that "3".

Here is an 1917, and shows the proper length boss for the number stamp, an earlier block like this 1914 has the correct small length boss.



1917 Model T Motor 002.jpg

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The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
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CTLeonard
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Re: 13 engine Id. Problems

Post by CTLeonard » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:58 pm

I'm slow; but I just couldn't understand how every one was coming up with 18. I'm just not a deceiving person. Just simply grind the 8 and there's a 3. Throw a low head on it and there you go. I apologize to every one I did not mean to try and sell a deceiving part.thanks everyone

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Re: 13 engine Id. Problems

Post by richc » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:35 pm

As mentioned above, the engine number boss on the block in question is of a later style, beginning in late 1915 or early 1916. When the serial numbers hit the one million mark the extra digit made for a tight fit for the the guy stamping in the numbers. You can see what an original 1913 number boss looks like and the reason why the boss was lengthened in the 1916 photo.
Feb13a_s.jpg
Early 1916 block.JPG
There are other changes during 1913. Early 1913 blocks had a single reinforcing gusset supporting the rear main bearing while later in 1913 this was replaced with a pair of gussets.
Feb13b_s.jpg
One other change is on the block flange that bolts to the pan - on the right side just back of the front cover. During 1913 the first bolt hole got a reinforcement, which remained there through the end of the non-starter engine production. However in early 1913 blocks this change had not taken place, as pictured below. The non-reinforced bolt hole is from the Feb 1913 block pictured above and the reinforced block is a 1918.
1913 Style_s.jpg
1914 Style_s.jpg
Of course the so called freeze plugs also changed during the 1913 year, from the pipe plug style to the hammered in welch plug.
There may be other small changes to the blocks in the 1913 time period that I don't know about. I hope what I've presented helps.

Rich C.


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Re: 13 engine Id. Problems

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:14 am

The inside the crankcase photo of the 1913 block shared by Rich C gives a good view of the earlier rounded 'setup' block inside the crankcase. That detail also changed around late 1913 or early 1914. Practically all model T blocks from very early had those two 'setup' corners inside the crankcase, opposite the cam, one in the front half, one in the back half. I don't know exactly when it began (other than fairly early?), but those were carefully placed inside the casting molds as a setup reference for the first machining the block would receive after it had cooled. All the top and bottom smooth areas were first referenced from that cast corner. Early blocks, including that 1913, the setup corners were rounded. Sometime early in 1914, they were squared off, and made slightly smaller. My late 1913 block also has the rounded setup corners. The corners had to be carefully placed in the patterns and the molds to perform their magic. All the 1915 blocks I have looked at close enough, and most of the 1914s I have seen, had the later squared setup corners, as have nearly everything later I have looked at.

An interesting side note. I did once (at a swap meet I think?) see a 1914 block that had one of each (square and rounded) setup corners in it. The blocks were cast in an assembled bunch of multipart molds. Many of the mold pieces were reusable, including most of the external areas of the block, and the inside of the upper crankcase. These would be reused through as many heat cycles as they would remain viable. Eventually the molds would begin to breakdown and have to be replaced. A few mold pieces (most notably the inside of the water jacket!) were single use, usually made of sand.
I just found it interesting that the inside upper crankcase molds would be replaced such that both an earlier and later detail such as that would wind up in one engine block. I wonder how many blocks were used with that anomaly, and how many like that may still be around today?

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